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[Music]

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welcome back to liminal frames i'm your

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co-host nathan and i'm joined by

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my co-host exo academian exo greetings

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to you sir how are things going

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things are going quite well thanks and

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uh i'm excited for today's slightly

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different format where we're going to do

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a hit and run on on numerous topics

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we are rapid fire uh well maybe not

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quite rapid but rapid for us let's put

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it that way right

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so it's all relative right

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it really is

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uh rapid liminal frame style uh so yeah

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so welcome to everyone who's uh joining

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us uh on youtube or or through your

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podcast of a

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platform of choice great to have you

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with us

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uh listening along and thank you to

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everyone who has provided feedback

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to the show we do very much enjoy that

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and and enjoy hearing uh not only your

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thoughts but where you have shared this

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uh

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show with others we're looking forward

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to

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kind of growing this community and and

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continuing to gain

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uh insight from our listeners and we'll

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be incorporating listener feedback and

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and questions in a future show

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so with that aside we're going to jump

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into this so we've got a few topics

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we're going to cover today uh they're

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not necessarily

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i would say all the same

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but there is a little bit of commonality

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amongst them

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but we'll jump right in so the very

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first topic we're going to hit here is

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is the phenomenon the activity of one or

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many actors from one or multiple sources

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so exo i'm going to let you take this

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one this was your idea so if you'll take

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it away that would be great

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sure i mean i think one of the reasons

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why i wanted to address this one is

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because um

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so often by default i see people i think

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somewhat unconsciously

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talking about the phenomenon as if it's

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one actor ultimately

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from one source um

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there are some some you know researchers

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historically even like a john keel

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who actually wondered if a variety of

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phenomena were ultimately sort of

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different manifestations different

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facades of the so the base phenomenon

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was was all one actor one

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sort of um

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super entity that was sort of beyond our

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normal realm of perception

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i think that that has some credibility

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to it um

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but i think

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and i think also what happens is because

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we're dealing with things that are

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beyond the prosaic here we're dealing

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with

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um activity that seems to be beyond even

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the pale of what we think can happen in

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reality so often

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that we it's already a big stretch to

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say okay what if we open up and say

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there's an entire new category that

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we've never considered before

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that's a big deal so for a lot of people

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that that's a mental leap in itself

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now if you ask them to simultaneously go

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from you know our normal 3d plus one

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reality and we're the only real

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intelligence and then we have the

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animals and that's it

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to suddenly going

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actually we live in a kind of multiverse

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scenario however you want to define that

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with uh

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not only different extraterrestrial

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civilizations entities but even

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interdimensional civilizations and

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entities maybe even entities living in

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shadow biomes in our own

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sort of space to some degree and

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potentially even

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extra frequential uh beings entities

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that exist in our 3d plus one reality

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but in a way that we don't usually

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perceive them

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so if you say you know you go from the

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first step to say can you please now

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open up the aperture and accept all of

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these possibilities it's a lot there um

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so i think that's that's that's one of

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the reasons why i wanted to address it

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is because

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just the mental challenge for people of

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saying what if reality is you know not

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just slightly more complex than we

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imagined but you know much much more

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complex

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and then it comes down to

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i think looking at the data looking at

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the historical evidence looking for

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patterns within the overall evidence and

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seeing if you see evidence for at least

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making the argument that there could be

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different groups even potentially from

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different sources

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there's a lot of stories in the

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literature of many different kinds of

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beings

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uh of course

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we're all familiar with the the grays

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and then you've got even within the

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grays the tall grays and the short grays

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but you've got the nordics and the

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reptilians and the gnomes of some kind

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i've heard a lot of those descriptions

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of the very short kind of hairy

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beings uh

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you know jim semivan talking about his

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sort of michelin man kind of looking

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being which is

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popped up in a couple of places

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uh so there's a pretty

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you know the mantids how could i forget

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the mantids uh you know there's a pretty

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wide range here of uh kind of morphology

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represented in the literature

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um and

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you know on the face of it that

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it's hard to sort of say well they're

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all the same you know that that you know

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could all be just the same thing

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um and i think that the

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the notion

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as our own perception of our place in

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our solar system our place in our own

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galaxy

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you know sort of expands and matures

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this awareness that it would be very

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uh

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challenging maybe impossible for us to

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be all that there is

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in terms of intelligent life i think you

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know most of our science is is saying

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that that can't be true you know that we

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aren't alone that certainly in the vast

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expanse of the universe it's just a

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numbers game there are probably

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millions of uh intelligent

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life forms out there um

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but of course the conventional sciences

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that that that's probably true but

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there's no way that we'll ever see them

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uh because they're too far away

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you know we're like kind of ships

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crossing in the night

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to a certain degree

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um

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so

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that that coming that coming awareness

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of kind of just where we are from a

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mainstream standpoint mapping that on to

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the literature the experiences that we

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see

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you know it's pretty i think comfortable

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for us to say okay

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uh

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you know let's take that that thing that

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we're already okay saying yes to and

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let's just make it local let's just make

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it that we are intersecting interacting

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with

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that multiplicity of life and it's

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happening here

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uh so i like that you know it's very

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attractive

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i think narrative

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but the the the singular phenomenon is

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interesting to me as well and i think

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you know as we kind of walk through the

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topics today

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you know i i think it's kind of fun to

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flip this one back and forth and and

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quite frankly it's it's it's valuable

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from both

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perspectives and from as far as i'm

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concerned what would you say to that

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i agree with that and i would actually

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even maybe add a third option

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which is that if you bring

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our consciousness

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into the mix and say that

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who we are

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becomes part of how this gets framed

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um

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then

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you know it may even be

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that you have

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you could have cases say where there's a

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lot of times where it's one thing what

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it ends up looking like is different

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things and we have as much of a role

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to play in that as the thing itself so

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that there's a kind of translation

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process that by default has to happen

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when these different

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kinds of realities are intermingling

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with ours

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that just by definition that's what

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happens

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um

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kind of like when you're translating one

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language to another uh human language is

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even you never get a perfect translation

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you get some translation errors just

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because there's some base differences in

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different societies and how they think

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about the world because language

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ultimately reflects the way we see the

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world in reality

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so i think yeah i think it is worthwhile

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doing that because it could even be that

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you know you could you have one actor

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that causes a lot of it for instance

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right and so you could to some degree

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say it doesn't have to be either this

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you know

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huge assortment of different ones or one

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manifesting as different ones it could

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be that you have

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a bunch of different ones different

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sources different entities different

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origins but you also have one that has

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the capacity

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one to

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manifest in different forms or

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we are part of the process with our

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consciousness and that partly explains

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why you have so much

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you know variance like for even when you

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think about the craft that have been

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seen right the supposed 3d craft that

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looked like objects in the sky

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now there's some

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question there whether or not that's

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kind of like a virtual reality

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representation or if it's really

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physical if you could you know knock

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your hand on it kind of thing and make a

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digging sound

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but i you know you've probably seen it

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where people put together these these um

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illustrations of all the different kinds

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of even like saucer type shapes that

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have been seen and it's like

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myriad shapes right like almost

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everything you can imagine

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um

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which makes me sometimes wonder if it is

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somehow a representation that's a

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translation of something else and that's

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why you get these differences

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you also get interesting um

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discrepancies like

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people see a craft from the outside it

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looks like a certain size they get

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inside and seems like

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50 100 times larger you know and so

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it seems like what we think of as these

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these hard and fast rules around what's

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physicality and it being you know a

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consistent dimension and things like

288
00:10:26,949 --> 00:10:25,600
that doesn't work this this way with

289
00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:26,959
with some of these

290
00:10:32,230 --> 00:10:31,120
others and the craft they supposedly use

291
00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:32,240
the other thing i was going to say too

292
00:10:36,069 --> 00:10:34,240
that that's tricky is that

293
00:10:38,949 --> 00:10:36,079
you know in in point of convergence i

294
00:10:42,470 --> 00:10:38,959
did a podcast episode on eric davis's

295
00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:42,480
and chocolate's six-layer model

296
00:10:45,110 --> 00:10:44,320
and they make the excellent point in

297
00:10:47,110 --> 00:10:45,120
there

298
00:10:49,750 --> 00:10:47,120
that sometimes the data itself is

299
00:10:50,949 --> 00:10:49,760
ambiguous so for instance

300
00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:50,959
and and

301
00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:52,640
based on our current science there's

302
00:10:55,910 --> 00:10:54,240
some times we don't even have an

303
00:10:57,829 --> 00:10:55,920
experiment that we could design

304
00:10:59,430 --> 00:10:57,839
theoretically that could demonstrate

305
00:11:01,829 --> 00:10:59,440
whether or not it's interdimensional

306
00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:01,839
versus extraterrestrial for instance

307
00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:03,600
like they make the point that

308
00:11:07,269 --> 00:11:04,880
wormholes

309
00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:07,279
theoretically could be a mode of travel

310
00:11:12,150 --> 00:11:10,320
for extraterrestrials interdimensionals

311
00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:12,160
and even time traveling humans from the

312
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:14,399
future you know all three

313
00:11:18,790 --> 00:11:17,040
tran traverse those kinds of

314
00:11:20,230 --> 00:11:18,800
different kinds of distances or

315
00:11:22,389 --> 00:11:20,240
modalities

316
00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:22,399
through something like a wormhole

317
00:11:25,269 --> 00:11:23,760
and just because we see something

318
00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:25,279
emerging from a wormhole like maybe at

319
00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:27,120
skinwalker ranch right that's been seen

320
00:11:32,389 --> 00:11:30,079
like portals have been seen and whatnot

321
00:11:33,829 --> 00:11:32,399
um we don't know that that means aha

322
00:11:35,509 --> 00:11:33,839
okay so they're coming from elsewhere in

323
00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:35,519
our physical universe no we don't know

324
00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:36,800
that it could be from a different

325
00:11:40,389 --> 00:11:39,040
dimension it could be whatever that is

326
00:11:42,310 --> 00:11:40,399
you know there's different discussions

327
00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:42,320
of what that means i think i have a

328
00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:44,640
different view on it than some people do

329
00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:46,560
and it could also be uh

330
00:11:50,069 --> 00:11:48,800
evidence of time traveling as well and

331
00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:50,079
and when you think about what's been

332
00:11:52,150 --> 00:11:51,120
seen

333
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:52,160
um

334
00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:53,519
at skidwalker ranch you know these

335
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:56,000
dinosaur-like jurassic era kind of

336
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:58,240
creatures that seem to roll onto the

337
00:12:00,629 --> 00:11:59,760
property it makes you wonder if there is

338
00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:00,639
kind of

339
00:12:05,670 --> 00:12:02,720
space and time get distorted when they

340
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:05,680
come through these portals

341
00:12:09,509 --> 00:12:07,680
there are sort of two facets that i want

342
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:09,519
to touch on with this just in light of

343
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:12,079
what you said so one is that this notion

344
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:14,720
that we ourselves are

345
00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:17,120
uh sort of a singular

346
00:12:20,389 --> 00:12:19,360
you know entity in and of ourselves you

347
00:12:21,350 --> 00:12:20,399
know so

348
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:21,360
um

349
00:12:24,949 --> 00:12:22,160
this

350
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:24,959
it seems like a an easy thing to say yes

351
00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:27,680
to you know i of course am the same

352
00:12:32,470 --> 00:12:30,399
uh you know sort of entity

353
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:32,480
nathan you know that i that i am now i

354
00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:33,760
always have been but when you really

355
00:12:36,629 --> 00:12:35,360
start getting into it and thinking about

356
00:12:39,350 --> 00:12:36,639
it and looking

357
00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:39,360
at yourself from a perspective of time

358
00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:41,200
it's very easy to see that that's not

359
00:12:44,629 --> 00:12:43,120
true you know my past self is a totally

360
00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:44,639
different nathan you know there are

361
00:12:47,590 --> 00:12:46,720
obviously commonalities

362
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:47,600
but

363
00:12:51,269 --> 00:12:49,680
you know would i recognize the thoughts

364
00:12:53,910 --> 00:12:51,279
of future nathan

365
00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:53,920
where i to meet that person uh tomorrow

366
00:12:57,910 --> 00:12:55,760
you know so that there's

367
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:57,920
some sort of a perceptual

368
00:13:02,470 --> 00:12:58,959
uh

369
00:13:04,790 --> 00:13:02,480
you know continuity that we maintain

370
00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:04,800
in order to sort of create this cohesive

371
00:13:09,509 --> 00:13:06,399
sense of who we are

372
00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:09,519
um and and just like we're doing that we

373
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:12,240
we can take that concept and map it on

374
00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:14,560
to the phenomenon as well

375
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:17,040
and and sort of look at what's happening

376
00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:19,120
throughout the literature and say well

377
00:13:22,629 --> 00:13:20,880
this is all the same thing

378
00:13:24,069 --> 00:13:22,639
you know it's it's it's it's all just

379
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:24,079
you know sort of the same even though it

380
00:13:28,069 --> 00:13:26,399
may look different over time or vice

381
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:28,079
versa you know that it's

382
00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:29,760
you know sort of all different pieces

383
00:13:32,829 --> 00:13:31,920
and i think the underlying sort of issue

384
00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:32,839
there

385
00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:36,160
is our perception of course and our our

386
00:13:39,430 --> 00:13:38,079
need for

387
00:13:40,590 --> 00:13:39,440
a cohesive

388
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:40,600
narrative

389
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:43,360
categorization of what's happening and

390
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:45,519
and you know i point that out only to

391
00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:47,600
say that

392
00:13:53,509 --> 00:13:50,560
the power of our ability to do that is

393
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:53,519
what enables us to do so much with our

394
00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:54,480
own

395
00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:57,360
lives you know so that this this notion

396
00:14:00,310 --> 00:13:59,440
that we can create a consistent sense of

397
00:14:02,310 --> 00:14:00,320
self

398
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:02,320
from moment to moment in our life

399
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:05,519
enables us as a species to do incredible

400
00:14:09,189 --> 00:14:06,480
things

401
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:09,199
um but but that's not necessarily a

402
00:14:13,189 --> 00:14:11,360
given you know like we kind of take that

403
00:14:15,670 --> 00:14:13,199
for granted but we are

404
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:15,680
we have we possess this capability and

405
00:14:19,829 --> 00:14:16,560
we

406
00:14:22,389 --> 00:14:19,839
cannot help but apply it to

407
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:22,399
many many other things in our sort of

408
00:14:27,750 --> 00:14:25,519
perceptual awareness and so we we apply

409
00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:27,760
that to the phenomenon as well you know

410
00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:28,560
this

411
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:29,600
that

412
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:33,120
you know it is this it is categorically

413
00:14:37,189 --> 00:14:34,800
this and that gives us greater control

414
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,199
over it understanding of it ultimately

415
00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:39,120
because we we really want to be able to

416
00:14:42,629 --> 00:14:40,720
manipulate

417
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:42,639
whatever that is we want to interact

418
00:14:48,389 --> 00:14:45,600
with it in a fashion that we can

419
00:14:50,710 --> 00:14:48,399
uh you know sort of change and and

420
00:14:52,150 --> 00:14:50,720
interact with

421
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:52,160
yeah i agree and

422
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:54,880
you know in buddhism uh they will often

423
00:14:59,030 --> 00:14:56,959
try to get you to to look at yourself

424
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:59,040
and look at your history to demonstrate

425
00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:01,199
that there is no there ultimately is no

426
00:15:04,710 --> 00:15:03,440
consistent self right like

427
00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:04,720
we we

428
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:06,880
can look back and say i i traveled from

429
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:08,320
this street to this street and that

430
00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:11,120
gives a sense of continuity right but

431
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:13,760
um in terms of who we become over time

432
00:15:17,350 --> 00:15:15,279
yeah it's constantly shifting you know

433
00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:17,360
even think about how the cells of our

434
00:15:21,269 --> 00:15:19,279
body you know reproduce every eight

435
00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:21,279
years or something you know so who's

436
00:15:24,629 --> 00:15:23,040
sitting in front of me you know across

437
00:15:27,430 --> 00:15:24,639
the virtual screen here

438
00:15:29,110 --> 00:15:27,440
is not the same biological entity in

439
00:15:30,389 --> 00:15:29,120
terms of what it's made of that it was

440
00:15:32,069 --> 00:15:30,399
eight years ago which is crazy when you

441
00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:32,079
think about it

442
00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:33,279
um

443
00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:36,880
i was thinking about this when you

444
00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:39,120
brought up that point um

445
00:15:42,389 --> 00:15:41,199
and relating to what i began with by

446
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:42,399
saying that

447
00:15:46,790 --> 00:15:44,160
because it's already a big stretch for

448
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:46,800
us to um allow for the possibility of

449
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:48,480
these different kinds of others

450
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:50,399
different kinds of intelligences

451
00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:53,519
different aspects of reality

452
00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:55,199
my friend stewart davis made this point

453
00:15:58,629 --> 00:15:57,120
one time and he was kind of pushing back

454
00:16:00,550 --> 00:15:58,639
at jacques valley a little bit and i

455
00:16:01,829 --> 00:16:00,560
think it's a valid point and his point

456
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:01,839
was that

457
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:05,759
do we some sometimes mistake um

458
00:16:09,829 --> 00:16:08,240
territory versus entity and so what he

459
00:16:11,829 --> 00:16:09,839
meant by that was

460
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:11,839
so he used the analogy of you're like

461
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:14,000
you're in a certain port right like in a

462
00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:15,839
bay somewhere

463
00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:18,320
and a certain period of time you know

464
00:16:21,829 --> 00:16:20,800
some people in a log canoe rolled up you

465
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:21,839
know

466
00:16:28,069 --> 00:16:25,279
another time an orca whale swam up right

467
00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:28,079
another time a nuclear submarine came in

468
00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:29,120
right

469
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:30,639
and

470
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:32,160
say other times you're not used to

471
00:16:36,629 --> 00:16:34,480
seeing things in that bay okay so what

472
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:36,639
happens is again because it's an it's an

473
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:38,560
anomaly to even see something in that

474
00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:39,680
bay

475
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:42,399
uh you can get people to say aha this is

476
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:44,240
just different manifestations of the

477
00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:46,880
same entity right over time

478
00:16:51,030 --> 00:16:49,040
and maybe it's not maybe it's just that

479
00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:51,040
these are literally different entities

480
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:53,279
happening to cross over the same terrain

481
00:16:57,990 --> 00:16:55,440
the same territory and again i think

482
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:58,000
it's it's a bias in us

483
00:17:01,829 --> 00:17:00,079
to allow for all those we can do that in

484
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:01,839
physical reality because we come we've

485
00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:03,120
become accustomed to it right it's part

486
00:17:07,029 --> 00:17:04,880
of our consensus reality

487
00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:07,039
but when it comes to

488
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:08,880
you know wandering out on the plane

489
00:17:13,029 --> 00:17:10,079
somewhere and knowing that you could

490
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:13,039
come across an et an interdimensional

491
00:17:18,390 --> 00:17:16,240
being a time traveler you know

492
00:17:19,829 --> 00:17:18,400
some manifestation from your own

493
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:19,839
subconscious or the collective

494
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:22,400
unconscious like when you start or an

495
00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:24,400
extra frequential being that's always

496
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:25,679
been there that you just don't usually

497
00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:27,600
see it and it has the capacity maybe to

498
00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:30,080
tune in and tune up and tune down so you

499
00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:32,320
it you it does become you know within

500
00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:34,320
your frame of awareness

501
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:36,080
when you allow for all of that that's

502
00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:38,160
that's just a lot for people to swallow

503
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:40,320
and so i think people tend to

504
00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:44,640
try to take it in in one chunk and say

505
00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:47,200
it's all one thing um

506
00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:49,120
so while i think there is like you said

507
00:17:52,230 --> 00:17:50,720
it is worth going back and forth and

508
00:17:54,150 --> 00:17:52,240
saying let's not assume that just

509
00:17:56,070 --> 00:17:54,160
because we have two manifestations that

510
00:17:57,029 --> 00:17:56,080
it's two entities and two sources it may

511
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:57,039
not be

512
00:17:59,590 --> 00:17:58,000
especially when you bring in the

513
00:18:01,029 --> 00:17:59,600
complexity of our consciousness and how

514
00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:01,039
that translates

515
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:03,280
these things as part of the process

516
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:04,640
but at the same time i think we also

517
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:06,799
have to be wary of

518
00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:08,960
our prejudice towards wanting simple

519
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:11,360
answers

520
00:18:15,830 --> 00:18:14,080
yeah well said and uh i i was going to

521
00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:15,840
ask you know so what's the danger here

522
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:17,200
but you really landed on it you know

523
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:18,000
that

524
00:18:24,310 --> 00:18:21,360
the danger i think with anything is is

525
00:18:25,909 --> 00:18:24,320
is oversimplification uh

526
00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:25,919
in the lack of other evidence and

527
00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:28,960
information you know so until we have a

528
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:31,039
greater degree of clarity we we really

529
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:33,679
must i think have to entertain

530
00:18:37,990 --> 00:18:35,520
uh a lot of different

531
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:38,000
perspectives and notions until we have

532
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:39,039
other

533
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:40,640
yeah can we we can win with that down a

534
00:18:45,990 --> 00:18:43,520
little bit more

535
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:46,000
and and two it's for me as well i think

536
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:47,039
it's it's

537
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:50,160
i try not to get wrapped up too much in

538
00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:52,640
the in the number of options because

539
00:18:57,909 --> 00:18:55,280
it can become a little bit like a bit of

540
00:18:59,909 --> 00:18:57,919
a whack-a-mole you know you you know you

541
00:19:02,390 --> 00:18:59,919
can you can have so many options on the

542
00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:02,400
table that it start it starts to become

543
00:19:07,029 --> 00:19:05,200
like worthless in a way in terms of your

544
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:07,039
ability to kind of extract what's really

545
00:19:10,549 --> 00:19:08,320
happening or

546
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:10,559
uh in know sort of any kind of valuable

547
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:12,720
conclusions about what it may be

548
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:13,600
um

549
00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:16,080
or just a good operating model even you

550
00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:18,720
know you you can be just a kind of the

551
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:20,000
victim of

552
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:23,600
of too much fanciful thinking um so

553
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:25,200
anyway i think it's important just to

554
00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:26,720
kind of keep these things in mind and to

555
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,720
recognize the

556
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:30,720
as we often do here on liminal frames

557
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:32,880
you know recognize the value of these

558
00:19:36,830 --> 00:19:35,039
sort of you know still word that you'd

559
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:36,840
like to use the multi

560
00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:40,559
perspectival uh you know take on things

561
00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:42,160
absolutely and i would just you know

562
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:43,600
chime in with something you said on a

563
00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:46,240
previous one of our podcast where

564
00:19:49,830 --> 00:19:47,840
we have to be careful not to say just

565
00:19:51,990 --> 00:19:49,840
because there's evidence of

566
00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:52,000
much more than we used to believe being

567
00:19:55,830 --> 00:19:53,600
part of the big picture doesn't

568
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:55,840
necessarily mean everything that's ever

569
00:20:00,470 --> 00:19:58,320
been described or discussed or pitched

570
00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:00,480
is true right so

571
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:02,240
just because

572
00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:03,760
you know reality may be much more

573
00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:05,679
complex and interesting than we first

574
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:07,919
assumed does not mean every conspiracy

575
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:10,559
theory under the sun is accurate so

576
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:13,039
it is a tricky kind of in-between place

577
00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:14,880
to be open

578
00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:16,720
but also not to

579
00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:19,440
um you know leap to conclusions because

580
00:20:23,990 --> 00:20:22,240
we like to feel like we know so

581
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:24,000
standing in that in between place where

582
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:27,200
you you really try to objectively

583
00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:29,600
putting aside prejudice look at data

584
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:31,600
look for potential patterns

585
00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:33,440
but don't overly commit to a certain

586
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:34,720
hypothesis

587
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:35,760
before

588
00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:37,600
the evidence suggests you really

589
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:39,520
can justify that

590
00:20:43,029 --> 00:20:40,480
right

591
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:43,039
well and that's a maybe a good segue to

592
00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:44,559
our next topic you know we kind of hit

593
00:20:49,110 --> 00:20:46,720
this one the first one from

594
00:20:51,430 --> 00:20:49,120
this in a broad view covering the

595
00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:51,440
various different angles but but in

596
00:20:55,190 --> 00:20:53,520
talking about leaving space

597
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:55,200
and uh

598
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:56,559
you know sort of

599
00:21:00,230 --> 00:20:59,280
providing enough room

600
00:21:02,549 --> 00:21:00,240
to

601
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:02,559
interpret uh a particular

602
00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:05,520
uh experience or story um we thought it

603
00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:06,960
would be good and we're gonna go here

604
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:11,360
everybody uh to talk about the anjali's

605
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:13,760
story and um you know kind of our

606
00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:16,320
different perspectives and takes on on

607
00:21:19,990 --> 00:21:17,600
that

608
00:21:21,669 --> 00:21:20,000
situation so um exo how do you want to

609
00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:21,679
even start with that one i feel like

610
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:23,520
it's like a super hot potato but where

611
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:27,360
it is i'll take it briefly into my hand

612
00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:29,200
i think the first thing i think we would

613
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:31,200
say is that

614
00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:34,080
we would say anjali and and and cases

615
00:21:38,310 --> 00:21:36,159
like it so we're not specifically trying

616
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:38,320
to dial in on her situation

617
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,960
we're more trying to address the overall

618
00:21:44,789 --> 00:21:42,720
issues that arise with these kinds of

619
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:44,799
situations because this is certainly not

620
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:46,400
the first time this has happened nor

621
00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:48,480
will it be the last so

622
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:50,640
we're looking at what kind of lessons

623
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:53,360
can be learned from this saga

624
00:21:56,830 --> 00:21:54,880
for for when it happens next time

625
00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:56,840
because it will happen again

626
00:22:01,990 --> 00:21:59,919
um and i think uh we can probably go

627
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:02,000
back and forth on this one um

628
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:03,760
would be helpful but

629
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:05,520
one thing i would say initially to the

630
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:07,360
people is i would really caution against

631
00:22:13,430 --> 00:22:09,520
a kind of binary this is either true or

632
00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:13,440
it's not you know um you know she uh

633
00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:16,159
she made claims about

634
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:17,760
accessing a tunnel

635
00:22:23,029 --> 00:22:20,880
uh into a mountain kind of cavern that

636
00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:23,039
was actually an alien base and she came

637
00:22:28,070 --> 00:22:26,480
across various alien alien entities and

638
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:28,080
seemed pretty convinced that this was

639
00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:30,720
happening in our 3d plus one reality our

640
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:33,039
our usual consensus reality

641
00:22:36,470 --> 00:22:34,880
so much so that for those of you not

642
00:22:38,830 --> 00:22:36,480
familiar with the story although i don't

643
00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:38,840
know how many people are like that now

644
00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:42,080
um she actually uh was uh

645
00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:43,520
set up a poll kind of thing where people

646
00:22:49,270 --> 00:22:45,760
could vote on who would join her

647
00:22:49,990 --> 00:22:49,280
on kind of an envoy uh expedition to go

648
00:22:52,549 --> 00:22:50,000
and

649
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:52,559
go back to this mountain um

650
00:22:57,590 --> 00:22:55,120
ufo base and meet these aliens and that

651
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:57,600
supposedly the aliens were you know part

652
00:23:00,710 --> 00:22:59,440
of this process and spearheading it to

653
00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:00,720
some degree and giving her some

654
00:23:05,270 --> 00:23:02,640
direction

655
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:05,280
so you know on the one hand again we

656
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:08,480
last time we talked about you know

657
00:23:12,789 --> 00:23:11,760
believers skeptics and deniers

658
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:12,799
um

659
00:23:16,230 --> 00:23:14,720
and i think we can also approach this

660
00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:16,240
topic from from those three different

661
00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:18,720
vantage points too from that spectrum

662
00:23:21,669 --> 00:23:19,600
um

663
00:23:23,430 --> 00:23:21,679
i think there are some believers

664
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:23,440
who

665
00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:25,919
enter into this situation with a good

666
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:27,520
amount of objectivity they know that

667
00:23:31,350 --> 00:23:30,080
this is a tricky and prickly topic

668
00:23:34,149 --> 00:23:31,360
they know that people really do

669
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:34,159
experience things

670
00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:36,799
but they also know that

671
00:23:39,669 --> 00:23:38,320
a lot of the evidence seems to suggest

672
00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:39,679
even when you look back at the free

673
00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:41,440
research that came out

674
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:42,880
um

675
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:44,640
that a lot of people seem to perceive

676
00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:46,320
this as happening in a different kind of

677
00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:47,840
realm or an alternate state of

678
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:49,120
consciousness

679
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:51,200
so it's easy for someone who's who's new

680
00:23:55,269 --> 00:23:52,720
to this

681
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:55,279
because it feels absolutely real right

682
00:24:00,070 --> 00:23:58,240
to to confuse that and think that it

683
00:24:01,669 --> 00:24:00,080
happened in our manifest your usual

684
00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:01,679
consensus reality

685
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:03,600
and that you could therefore go and show

686
00:24:07,669 --> 00:24:05,840
someone right um

687
00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:07,679
right from the beginning once she was

688
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:10,080
even making those claims

689
00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:12,080
um and it was a pretty bold kind of

690
00:24:15,350 --> 00:24:13,360
claims you know like holding a press

691
00:24:17,750 --> 00:24:15,360
conference in washington dc

692
00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:17,760
asking the news media to show up

693
00:24:22,390 --> 00:24:19,520
so

694
00:24:24,870 --> 00:24:22,400
you could argue either she was you know

695
00:24:26,950 --> 00:24:24,880
either really convinced or really trying

696
00:24:29,110 --> 00:24:26,960
to take people for a ride but you know

697
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:29,120
you have to ask what to what end would

698
00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:30,720
you take people for a ride if you knew

699
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:32,559
all along you wouldn't be able to

700
00:24:37,269 --> 00:24:34,720
deliver the goods so it seems to me that

701
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:37,279
she did believe it

702
00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:38,880
and again i don't want to say it didn't

703
00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:41,600
happen i think she had experiences

704
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:43,360
i think that

705
00:24:47,909 --> 00:24:45,760
the data shows us though outside of her

706
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:47,919
situation even that these experiences

707
00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:49,919
often happen it happen in a kind of

708
00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:51,520
altered state of consciousness or an

709
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:52,880
alternate realm

710
00:24:56,390 --> 00:24:54,240
and that's true for a lot of the things

711
00:25:00,870 --> 00:24:56,400
we're going to talk about today

712
00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:00,880
ndes obes even abduction stories um

713
00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:02,400
so

714
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:03,840
i think we have to keep that in mind

715
00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:06,400
that it's it's not a binary you know is

716
00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:08,320
it true or is it not

717
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:11,120
i think this is a cautionary tale um

718
00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:13,440
both for for a new person who has these

719
00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:14,880
kinds of experiences

720
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:16,080
and they're overwhelming and

721
00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:18,799
life-changing uh in in sometimes in very

722
00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:21,360
positive ways i think that she has shown

723
00:25:24,549 --> 00:25:23,200
evidence of really having a spiritual

724
00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:24,559
transformation

725
00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:26,240
which happens to a lot of people again

726
00:25:30,710 --> 00:25:28,480
from the literature we can see that

727
00:25:33,110 --> 00:25:30,720
but where the where the

728
00:25:35,669 --> 00:25:33,120
the mistake came in i think is in what

729
00:25:37,750 --> 00:25:35,679
realm or level or mode of reality did

730
00:25:40,710 --> 00:25:37,760
this happen um again that doesn't mean

731
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:40,720
it's less real or not it's more about

732
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:43,520
how reproducible is it um can you really

733
00:25:48,870 --> 00:25:45,520
lead people on an expedition

734
00:25:50,789 --> 00:25:48,880
etc what are your thoughts

735
00:25:52,470 --> 00:25:50,799
oh yeah it's um well it's a human

736
00:25:53,350 --> 00:25:52,480
interest story you know i think that's

737
00:25:54,789 --> 00:25:53,360
um

738
00:25:56,789 --> 00:25:54,799
something that

739
00:25:59,029 --> 00:25:56,799
you know those who are in the community

740
00:26:01,510 --> 00:25:59,039
uh you know really gravitate toward

741
00:26:02,470 --> 00:26:01,520
there's this real element of

742
00:26:08,710 --> 00:26:02,480
uh

743
00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:08,720
you know that it it's like literally

744
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:10,880
like you you have attainment in a way

745
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:12,320
you know so what's what's going to

746
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,240
happen next um

747
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:16,480
and you know i think as a result you see

748
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:18,880
a tremendous amount of

749
00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:21,520
uh you know public interest uh in in

750
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:24,320
what she says um and communities have

751
00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:27,279
certainly popped up around what she says

752
00:26:32,149 --> 00:26:30,159
and and various shows you know are

753
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:32,159
see a lot of viewership uh when they

754
00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:34,240
have her on to talk about her experience

755
00:26:39,029 --> 00:26:36,720
so um you know and there's a mixture

756
00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:39,039
there too of kind of why people are

757
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:40,960
there you know some are there

758
00:26:46,390 --> 00:26:43,440
uh you know as just a sort of a

759
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:46,400
curiosity you know some are there

760
00:26:50,549 --> 00:26:48,720
in part because maybe they too have had

761
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:50,559
their own experience and they're looking

762
00:26:56,230 --> 00:26:52,720
for some kind of commonality

763
00:26:57,990 --> 00:26:56,240
uh and and seeing someone else who is

764
00:27:00,870 --> 00:26:58,000
kind of given the floor can be

765
00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:00,880
validating to what you have gone through

766
00:27:03,430 --> 00:27:02,320
in your own right

767
00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:03,440
um

768
00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:05,600
you know what i what i want to say is

769
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:06,640
that

770
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,080
this is a very complex situation

771
00:27:14,230 --> 00:27:12,000
i think it's um

772
00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:14,240
i have a very hard time

773
00:27:18,830 --> 00:27:15,440
being

774
00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:18,840
particularly black and white on it

775
00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:21,279
because uh if you take a black and white

776
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:23,440
position you know sort of one way or the

777
00:27:28,389 --> 00:27:25,919
other you also have to be then willing

778
00:27:31,669 --> 00:27:28,399
to take black and white positions on

779
00:27:33,350 --> 00:27:31,679
other things other similar events like

780
00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:33,360
this that have happened throughout the

781
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:35,200
literature and not just

782
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:37,360
the the ufo literature the abduction

783
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:39,440
literature or whatever but through

784
00:27:43,590 --> 00:27:41,440
sort of the history of human

785
00:27:46,149 --> 00:27:43,600
uh kind of what i would call like a

786
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:46,159
visionary experience you know so

787
00:27:48,870 --> 00:27:47,039
um

788
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:48,880
we've taken a lot of visionary

789
00:27:52,389 --> 00:27:50,080
experience

790
00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:52,399
in human history and that has sort of

791
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:54,960
converted itself into uh religious

792
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:56,480
experience and

793
00:28:01,510 --> 00:27:58,640
uh and whole you know sort of doctrines

794
00:28:02,870 --> 00:28:01,520
have been crafted around someone's you

795
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:02,880
know particular

796
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:04,799
vision whether it was a vision had an

797
00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:07,520
altered state of consciousness or or not

798
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:09,760
you know so if you're going to come come

799
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:11,760
down particularly hard

800
00:28:17,750 --> 00:28:14,559
on anjali and what she is saying i think

801
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:17,760
you have to also be honest and and fair

802
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:19,600
with a lot of the other

803
00:28:24,870 --> 00:28:22,640
uh sort of experiences that are there in

804
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:24,880
in the past and and and give those

805
00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:27,760
experiences a similar degree of scrutiny

806
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:29,200
or skepticism

807
00:28:35,029 --> 00:28:32,320
um i you know and as a result i i i

808
00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:35,039
don't you know kind of say you know that

809
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:36,720
that she's full of it or you know that

810
00:28:39,590 --> 00:28:38,320
she's a fraudster or whatever i have a

811
00:28:42,230 --> 00:28:39,600
hard time

812
00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:42,240
uh coming to that conclusion i don't

813
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:44,880
think the facts at least as i see them

814
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:47,760
really line up uh with

815
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:50,080
that particular perspective at the same

816
00:28:52,789 --> 00:28:50,960
time

817
00:28:54,630 --> 00:28:52,799
and then just as you hinted at you know

818
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:54,640
already

819
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:56,640
you know just because she had

820
00:29:00,710 --> 00:28:58,640
an experience does not necessarily mean

821
00:29:02,549 --> 00:29:00,720
it was an experience in the way that

822
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:02,559
you know you and i would you know want a

823
00:29:05,909 --> 00:29:04,240
camera crew to go down and take a look

824
00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:05,919
at something happening on the corner you

825
00:29:09,269 --> 00:29:08,080
know it may not be quite the same

826
00:29:10,549 --> 00:29:09,279
um

827
00:29:11,510 --> 00:29:10,559
so

828
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:11,520
you know

829
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:13,440
we we seem to need

830
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:14,960
uh either

831
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:16,240
kind of a new

832
00:29:19,669 --> 00:29:18,640
model or language or way in which we can

833
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:19,679
approach

834
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:22,640
experience generally um you know because

835
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:24,640
we we like to kind of make

836
00:29:28,389 --> 00:29:26,399
really kind of stark

837
00:29:30,549 --> 00:29:28,399
uh dividing lines you know it's like

838
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:30,559
well this is an experience in reality

839
00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:32,480
this is an experience in

840
00:29:34,630 --> 00:29:33,440
uh

841
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:34,640
you know sort of

842
00:29:39,190 --> 00:29:36,799
uh subjectivity you know objectivity and

843
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:39,200
subjectivity and anything that's

844
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:41,760
happening in subjective experience

845
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:44,240
is absolutely uh

846
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:45,600
you know sort of

847
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:49,760
biased wrong skewed uh unreliable by

848
00:29:53,269 --> 00:29:51,360
default anything that's happening in

849
00:29:55,110 --> 00:29:53,279
objective reality is

850
00:29:56,070 --> 00:29:55,120
you know true

851
00:29:58,149 --> 00:29:56,080
uh

852
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:58,159
you know exactly how it is and i think

853
00:30:02,149 --> 00:30:00,559
that that dichotomy

854
00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:02,159
as we are seeing and we've certainly

855
00:30:06,549 --> 00:30:04,640
talked about this a lot uh as we move

856
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:06,559
forward in our own understanding that

857
00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:09,600
dichotomy is just no longer helpful as a

858
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:11,600
means to understanding

859
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:13,840
what all of this really is

860
00:30:16,630 --> 00:30:14,799
and so

861
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:16,640
you know with that in mind with me

862
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:18,880
looking at this story

863
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:22,720
you know i see a person who

864
00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:26,000
has clearly had a profound experience

865
00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:28,640
that has changed their life so profound

866
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:30,640
that they felt compelled

867
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:31,360
to

868
00:30:35,909 --> 00:30:34,159
share that experience with a very wide

869
00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:35,919
audience as you said even going to the

870
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:37,520
degree to host a press conference about

871
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:38,399
it

872
00:30:43,269 --> 00:30:41,120
and going so far as to you know sort of

873
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:43,279
put up effortlessly some level of effort

874
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:46,240
to try to bring people to a physical

875
00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:48,320
location so this was a very profound

876
00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:50,880
experience that she had

877
00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:54,480
that has changed shaped who she is and

878
00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:56,480
who she is going to be

879
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:57,360
um

880
00:31:01,830 --> 00:30:59,600
you know whether or not it satisfies the

881
00:31:02,549 --> 00:31:01,840
criteria that others would want in terms

882
00:31:05,110 --> 00:31:02,559
of

883
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:05,120
you know me having a close encounter

884
00:31:09,029 --> 00:31:07,279
handshake with a with a giant you know

885
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:09,039
sort of mantid alien

886
00:31:14,149 --> 00:31:10,559
uh i don't know that we're gonna get

887
00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:14,159
there uh and then i also am concerned

888
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:16,240
uh anytime this particular topic comes

889
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:17,279
up and i would like to get your thoughts

890
00:31:21,669 --> 00:31:19,440
on this too just

891
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:21,679
you know what is the appropriate level

892
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,080
of kind of platforming

893
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:26,640
experiences like this you know sort of

894
00:31:31,430 --> 00:31:29,360
generally as i want to be fair

895
00:31:32,950 --> 00:31:31,440
to experiencers

896
00:31:35,190 --> 00:31:32,960
i also want to be

897
00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:35,200
cognizant of

898
00:31:39,509 --> 00:31:37,440
you know the individual because just

899
00:31:41,590 --> 00:31:39,519
because the individual is saying i want

900
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:41,600
to share this with everyone and i want

901
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:43,360
to go on and talk about as much as

902
00:31:47,669 --> 00:31:45,679
possible doesn't necessarily mean we're

903
00:31:50,230 --> 00:31:47,679
doing them a favor by letting them do

904
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:50,240
that so i you know i'm very kind of

905
00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:53,360
aware of the um the sensitive nate

906
00:31:58,630 --> 00:31:56,080
nature of this and i don't want to

907
00:31:59,430 --> 00:31:58,640
enable a person who

908
00:32:01,269 --> 00:31:59,440
uh

909
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:01,279
you know who through either mind

910
00:32:06,870 --> 00:32:03,840
enabling or community enabling you know

911
00:32:09,029 --> 00:32:06,880
it could do more harm to them than good

912
00:32:10,950 --> 00:32:09,039
so i i really wrestle with that quite a

913
00:32:12,470 --> 00:32:10,960
bit and and and i understand a lot of

914
00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:12,480
the folks that you know talk with her or

915
00:32:16,710 --> 00:32:14,480
want to have her on their shows i think

916
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:16,720
most of them wrestle with that too

917
00:32:22,549 --> 00:32:18,960
but but are pursuing it because there's

918
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:24,230
yeah and i think uh

919
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:26,080
first of all that's that's a sort of

920
00:32:30,389 --> 00:32:28,399
soul-searching question that i think any

921
00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:30,399
of us in this field have to wrestle with

922
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:33,120
and that is the the line between uh you

923
00:32:38,149 --> 00:32:35,120
know ufotainment

924
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:38,159
versus ufo information um

925
00:32:41,350 --> 00:32:39,679
i think that

926
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:41,360
sometimes just because someone has kind

927
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:47,590
view or perspective that will attract

928
00:32:51,909 --> 00:32:50,640
viewership or hits or whatever

929
00:32:54,630 --> 00:32:51,919
i don't think that means we should

930
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:54,640
necessarily give them a platform i

931
00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:56,320
i wish there was there's no way we're

932
00:33:00,870 --> 00:32:58,559
gonna you know all agree on okay let's

933
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:00,880
put it through this this system to see

934
00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:02,880
who passes and who doesn't

935
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:05,200
that's not gonna work but but i do wish

936
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:10,630
criteria that people set up for

937
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:12,240
themselves i don't think it's as simple

938
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:13,440
as saying

939
00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:15,600
look we're just gonna provide a platform

940
00:33:18,389 --> 00:33:17,200
for anyone that has a view and we're

941
00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:18,399
just being trying to be totally

942
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:21,600
democratic about it i don't think that's

943
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:24,240
helpful i think if you have an audience

944
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:25,200
especially if you have a pretty

945
00:33:30,230 --> 00:33:28,080
considerable audience i think

946
00:33:32,389 --> 00:33:30,240
part of your role is to be

947
00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:32,399
a gatekeeper of sorts to try to

948
00:33:35,430 --> 00:33:34,000
establish some of your own

949
00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:35,440
baselines

950
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:36,799
but speaking of that i had a few

951
00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:39,360
thoughts um so first of all to your

952
00:33:43,669 --> 00:33:41,600
question about you know to what degree

953
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:43,679
should we offer platforms for these kind

954
00:33:48,230 --> 00:33:46,320
of people uh in these kind of situations

955
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:48,240
not just for the sake of what it does to

956
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:49,679
the community but what it does to the

957
00:33:52,710 --> 00:33:51,760
individual who's coming forward with the

958
00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:52,720
story

959
00:33:56,549 --> 00:33:54,960
um i think

960
00:33:58,230 --> 00:33:56,559
when she first came forward i talked to

961
00:33:59,669 --> 00:33:58,240
some people who've been in this field

962
00:34:01,750 --> 00:33:59,679
for decades

963
00:34:02,870 --> 00:34:01,760
and they've heard this all before and

964
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:02,880
they they

965
00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:04,399
kind of predicted exactly where it ended

966
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:07,120
up going um

967
00:34:16,149 --> 00:34:14,550
i certainly would not on the on just on

968
00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:16,159
the face of it i would not recommend

969
00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:17,520
that someone who has a profound

970
00:34:20,869 --> 00:34:19,359
experience goes and holds a press

971
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:20,879
conference and asks the news media to

972
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:22,399
come i just don't think it's wise i

973
00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:24,320
think that

974
00:34:29,829 --> 00:34:27,040
my preference is just my preference uh

975
00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:29,839
the humble perspective would be to seek

976
00:34:34,149 --> 00:34:31,760
out others who claim to have similar

977
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:34,159
experiences and see what they learned

978
00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:35,760
how they handled it

979
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:37,119
talk to them

980
00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:38,879
try and put it through that process

981
00:34:42,869 --> 00:34:40,800
first rather than

982
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:42,879
i know it can feel like wow i'm the

983
00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:44,399
center of the world here and i'm not

984
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:45,919
trying to put her down i'm saying it

985
00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:48,960
feels profound it feels life-changing

986
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:50,960
the message that came to her

987
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:51,839
was

988
00:34:56,950 --> 00:34:54,320
you know civilization changing in you

989
00:34:58,630 --> 00:34:56,960
know in its nature so i understand fully

990
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:58,640
the desire to come forward and say hey i

991
00:35:01,510 --> 00:35:00,079
can help people

992
00:35:03,109 --> 00:35:01,520
at the same time

993
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:03,119
what a lot of people began to notice is

994
00:35:06,950 --> 00:35:05,040
a lot of the messages she said these

995
00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:06,960
others were bringing forward

996
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:08,960
were very similar to a lot of you know

997
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:10,720
ancient spiritual traditions you know

998
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:14,240
because truth is truth uh on one hand

999
00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:16,320
but also suggesting that maybe while

1000
00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:17,760
that was new to her it wasn't

1001
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:19,440
necessarily new to other people and i

1002
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:21,040
think if she had

1003
00:35:26,069 --> 00:35:23,760
sort of gone through a process of

1004
00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:26,079
checking with others uh seeing others

1005
00:35:28,790 --> 00:35:27,440
who had been through a similar situation

1006
00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:28,800
in history

1007
00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:31,200
before coming forward i think that might

1008
00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:33,680
have helped her um for her own sake you

1009
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:34,800
know

1010
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:38,000
broke

1011
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:39,599
um one of the things i remember writing

1012
00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:41,599
on ufo twitter that i appreciate

1013
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:44,720
appreciated about her um coming forward

1014
00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:46,480
was that she was at least

1015
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:47,920
um

1016
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:49,440
putting a deadline

1017
00:35:53,750 --> 00:35:51,440
on when she was going to verify that

1018
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:53,760
this was the case there are some people

1019
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:57,200
who uh you know are not honest actors

1020
00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:59,280
who come forward who make all sorts of

1021
00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:01,599
claims and they never get around to nor

1022
00:36:05,109 --> 00:36:02,960
do they even suggest that they will get

1023
00:36:07,510 --> 00:36:05,119
around to actually offering any kind of

1024
00:36:09,190 --> 00:36:07,520
evidence right in her case she said she

1025
00:36:11,910 --> 00:36:09,200
was going to lead this expedition at the

1026
00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:11,920
end of 2021 you would know by the end of

1027
00:36:15,829 --> 00:36:14,320
that year yay or nay right

1028
00:36:17,510 --> 00:36:15,839
so i remember saying okay well let's

1029
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:17,520
give her credit that she's saying she's

1030
00:36:21,349 --> 00:36:19,920
making some really you know out there

1031
00:36:23,589 --> 00:36:21,359
claims

1032
00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:23,599
but she's also saying you can judge me

1033
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:25,280
by these criteria and this will happen

1034
00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:27,280
by this deadline right that's that was

1035
00:36:31,589 --> 00:36:29,680
unique in itself

1036
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:31,599
but

1037
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:33,359
i think once it didn't happen because

1038
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:34,880
what ended up happening was she had to

1039
00:36:38,230 --> 00:36:36,720
delay delay and then it became obvious

1040
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:38,240
because of some sort of disagreement

1041
00:36:42,950 --> 00:36:40,320
with the person who owns the property

1042
00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:42,960
where this supposedly happened

1043
00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:44,640
wasn't going to let the expedition go

1044
00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:46,480
forward um

1045
00:36:48,870 --> 00:36:47,680
and so

1046
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:48,880
there's various

1047
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:50,640
reasons why that may or may not have not

1048
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:51,839
have been the case might have been

1049
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:54,720
completely justifiable reasons however

1050
00:36:58,390 --> 00:36:56,560
i still think at that point she has to

1051
00:37:00,470 --> 00:36:58,400
be accountable

1052
00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:00,480
for the fact that the evidence she

1053
00:37:04,550 --> 00:37:03,040
promised to provide did not happen

1054
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,560
the question of why is a separate

1055
00:37:07,349 --> 00:37:06,000
question i'm not saying there weren't

1056
00:37:09,109 --> 00:37:07,359
you know valid reasons why it didn't

1057
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:09,119
work out but you still have to come

1058
00:37:12,069 --> 00:37:10,880
forward and be accountable and say look

1059
00:37:15,349 --> 00:37:12,079
i said

1060
00:37:18,550 --> 00:37:15,359
would verify them on this date through

1061
00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:18,560
this these means that didn't happen so i

1062
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:19,599
understand if you don't want to take

1063
00:37:22,950 --> 00:37:21,599
anything i'm saying i don't have any

1064
00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:22,960
thing at this point that i can put

1065
00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:25,040
forward to say that this is provable you

1066
00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:27,119
know demonstrably

1067
00:37:32,310 --> 00:37:29,680
and i think that um

1068
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:32,320
it does the community a disservice and

1069
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:34,800
it does her a disservice and people like

1070
00:37:37,829 --> 00:37:36,480
her in that situation

1071
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:37,839
when we don't have that sort of

1072
00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:40,160
reckoning or we say okay

1073
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:42,079
you know we all got excited there was

1074
00:37:45,750 --> 00:37:43,680
all sorts of you know

1075
00:37:47,829 --> 00:37:45,760
uh discussion and celebration around

1076
00:37:49,349 --> 00:37:47,839
this thing that was gonna happen

1077
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:49,359
but we shouldn't just like turn our

1078
00:37:53,990 --> 00:37:51,119
heads and say ah that's too bad didn't

1079
00:37:56,069 --> 00:37:54,000
work out we should be just as front and

1080
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,079
center with the reckoning and the

1081
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:58,320
accountability on it not coming through

1082
00:38:02,470 --> 00:38:00,480
as we were on the initial excitement i

1083
00:38:04,950 --> 00:38:02,480
think that's the only way we can as a

1084
00:38:06,150 --> 00:38:04,960
community uh learn

1085
00:38:08,230 --> 00:38:06,160
um

1086
00:38:09,829 --> 00:38:08,240
and again that's as much for her for her

1087
00:38:12,550 --> 00:38:09,839
sake as anyone else's it's not about

1088
00:38:14,790 --> 00:38:12,560
trying to shame her and not nothing to

1089
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:14,800
do with that it's it's got to do with us

1090
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:16,640
as a community being honest with

1091
00:38:20,870 --> 00:38:19,280
ourselves and the outside world

1092
00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:20,880
um the other thing i wanted to bring up

1093
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:23,119
that touches on something you you

1094
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:24,640
brought up

1095
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:26,000
around this like

1096
00:38:31,030 --> 00:38:28,320
hard sense of objective reality right

1097
00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:31,040
versus a gradation of different you know

1098
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:33,839
elements of reality that kind of overlap

1099
00:38:37,990 --> 00:38:35,839
and i remember uh remember that john

1100
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:38,000
mack really ran into this you know so he

1101
00:38:42,390 --> 00:38:40,079
he was sort of like squarely in the

1102
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:42,400
mainstream of academia

1103
00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:43,440
um

1104
00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:45,119
and uh

1105
00:38:49,109 --> 00:38:46,720
you know he had

1106
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:49,119
people at harvard say to him

1107
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:51,680
listen john just tell us

1108
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:53,920
is this a psychological issue or is it

1109
00:38:58,630 --> 00:38:56,480
physical in other words is it real or is

1110
00:39:01,349 --> 00:38:58,640
it a psychological condition those were

1111
00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:01,359
the only two options they gave to john

1112
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:03,760
and what he wrestled with over years and

1113
00:39:09,190 --> 00:39:05,760
eventually came to was a recognition

1114
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:09,200
that that binary model doesn't seem to

1115
00:39:13,349 --> 00:39:11,760
play well with the data that

1116
00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:13,359
you know

1117
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:15,280
his uh comment on this actually came to

1118
00:39:18,790 --> 00:39:16,800
mind when we brought up when we were

1119
00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:18,800
tossing around names for our show

1120
00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:20,560
because he talked about these liminal

1121
00:39:24,950 --> 00:39:22,960
zones where things were both real and

1122
00:39:27,750 --> 00:39:24,960
not real you know and i know for a lot

1123
00:39:29,109 --> 00:39:27,760
of people that just sounds like you know

1124
00:39:31,990 --> 00:39:29,119
not just paradoxical but kind of

1125
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:32,000
nonsensical right but there seems to be

1126
00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:33,520
evidence again with these alternate

1127
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:35,040
realms with these alternate state of

1128
00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:36,400
consciousness

1129
00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:37,680
um

1130
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:40,400
with like sort of overlapping waves of

1131
00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:42,480
reality that can

1132
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:44,960
intersperse amongst each other

1133
00:39:48,790 --> 00:39:47,280
that it's not as simple as either this

1134
00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:48,800
person has some sort of psychological

1135
00:39:53,670 --> 00:39:50,560
condition or it happened in physical

1136
00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:53,680
reality it can be a gradation of various

1137
00:39:57,510 --> 00:39:55,680
options

1138
00:39:59,670 --> 00:39:57,520
um

1139
00:40:01,109 --> 00:39:59,680
i think we really need to continue to

1140
00:40:03,109 --> 00:40:01,119
wrestle with that we're a long ways from

1141
00:40:05,349 --> 00:40:03,119
that because our society much of our

1142
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:05,359
society and the mainstream view is not

1143
00:40:07,829 --> 00:40:06,960
anywhere close to that

1144
00:40:09,910 --> 00:40:07,839
um

1145
00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:09,920
the thing that happened with mac was

1146
00:40:13,190 --> 00:40:12,160
decades ago and and he went through kind

1147
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:13,200
of a

1148
00:40:18,069 --> 00:40:16,079
uh you know a tribunal

1149
00:40:19,589 --> 00:40:18,079
at harvard and and came out on the other

1150
00:40:21,190 --> 00:40:19,599
end but a lot of people wanted to you

1151
00:40:23,030 --> 00:40:21,200
know take him out of the school remove

1152
00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:23,040
his credentials whatever

1153
00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:24,800
because he even dared to believe this

1154
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:27,440
stuff could be in any way real right

1155
00:40:31,430 --> 00:40:29,680
and so getting back sort of full circle

1156
00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:31,440
to what i began with when i talked about

1157
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:34,319
you know believers skeptics deniers

1158
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:36,560
part of the challenge here is we

1159
00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:38,720
as a broad community containing all

1160
00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:40,800
three of those sort of main types and

1161
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:44,800
again there's a there's a spectrum there

1162
00:40:49,109 --> 00:40:46,240
we don't have

1163
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:49,119
um agreed upon baselines right like for

1164
00:40:54,069 --> 00:40:51,280
many people it's either

1165
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:54,079
real manifesting in 3d plus one reality

1166
00:40:56,710 --> 00:40:55,440
everybody can see it if it's there and

1167
00:40:58,710 --> 00:40:56,720
we can photograph it and we can

1168
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:58,720
videotape it and if you can't do any of

1169
00:41:02,870 --> 00:41:00,560
those things then it's not real at that

1170
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:02,880
point it's just subjective mushy

1171
00:41:06,790 --> 00:41:05,200
you know whatever

1172
00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:06,800
some people come at it from that point

1173
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:09,520
of view and so from their point of view

1174
00:41:14,309 --> 00:41:11,200
the they look at her case very

1175
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:14,319
differently in cases like it

1176
00:41:17,349 --> 00:41:16,240
you get people in between you know and i

1177
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:17,359
hear what you're saying you know in

1178
00:41:20,630 --> 00:41:18,960
terms of wrestling with

1179
00:41:22,550 --> 00:41:20,640
it's not just her story when we look

1180
00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:22,560
back at the literature

1181
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:24,720
so many stories right and where do you

1182
00:41:27,190 --> 00:41:26,160
land on

1183
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:27,200
uh

1184
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:28,400
it's not as simple as saying they're

1185
00:41:35,589 --> 00:41:31,599
either all true or they're all false

1186
00:41:37,109 --> 00:41:35,599
there's a gradation there too

1187
00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:37,119
but this is part of the challenge is

1188
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:39,200
that even when i

1189
00:41:43,430 --> 00:41:41,359
i find myself discussing this in

1190
00:41:45,190 --> 00:41:43,440
different circles that i'm usually in

1191
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:45,200
i run into those

1192
00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:47,359
you know hard-line reductionistic

1193
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:49,119
materialists

1194
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:51,040
who go whoa whoa wait wait a second what

1195
00:41:53,750 --> 00:41:52,400
are you saying like

1196
00:41:55,829 --> 00:41:53,760
that i don't even believe that's real

1197
00:41:59,910 --> 00:41:55,839
like you know as a baseline so let's not

1198
00:42:01,670 --> 00:41:59,920
even go there so it is very complex

1199
00:42:03,589 --> 00:42:01,680
there are some people that

1200
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:03,599
from the get-go

1201
00:42:07,349 --> 00:42:04,960
like you said

1202
00:42:09,829 --> 00:42:07,359
are experiencers themselves who felt for

1203
00:42:11,910 --> 00:42:09,839
her right and i felt sympathy for her

1204
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:11,920
wanted to champion her

1205
00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:13,520
um

1206
00:42:15,910 --> 00:42:14,640
partly to

1207
00:42:17,829 --> 00:42:15,920
validate themselves and their own

1208
00:42:19,510 --> 00:42:17,839
experiences they were hoping that maybe

1209
00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:19,520
this would finally be a way if this

1210
00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:21,280
really did happen

1211
00:42:25,349 --> 00:42:23,200
this expedition was successful then all

1212
00:42:27,430 --> 00:42:25,359
sudden their stories would be taken more

1213
00:42:29,109 --> 00:42:27,440
seriously so i understand that happens

1214
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:29,119
there are other people who were like

1215
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:30,720
salivating

1216
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:31,920
right from the beginning because they

1217
00:42:36,069 --> 00:42:34,079
said i know none of this is real and and

1218
00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:36,079
she's making such crazy claims that

1219
00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:38,000
we're going to be able to demonstrate

1220
00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:40,720
that it's not possibly true

1221
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:42,720
and then people have rightly made the

1222
00:42:47,109 --> 00:42:45,359
point that whenever these cases do arise

1223
00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:47,119
and they don't pan out

1224
00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:49,680
it actually

1225
00:42:54,710 --> 00:42:52,319
paints with a bra brush a negative in

1226
00:42:56,150 --> 00:42:54,720
terms of experiencer stories

1227
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:56,160
because when

1228
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:58,240
deniers or skeptics see stories like

1229
00:43:02,470 --> 00:43:00,480
this that don't pan out it makes them go

1230
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:02,480
aha see that's true all experience for

1231
00:43:05,430 --> 00:43:04,079
stories there's really nothing to them

1232
00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:05,440
there's nothing there right it's all

1233
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:06,960
smoke and mirrors

1234
00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:07,920
um

1235
00:43:11,190 --> 00:43:09,599
so that's that's the unfortunate thing

1236
00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:11,200
is it goes from people getting excited

1237
00:43:14,550 --> 00:43:13,040
to we're finally going to get

1238
00:43:17,589 --> 00:43:14,560
evidence that's going to plant this in

1239
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:17,599
the mainstream to suddenly it goes aha

1240
00:43:22,390 --> 00:43:19,440
something else again that blew up it

1241
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:22,400
never panned out and it actually

1242
00:43:26,710 --> 00:43:24,160
discredits the entire experience for

1243
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:26,720
community as a result so

1244
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:27,920
it really there are a lot of lessons to

1245
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:29,920
be learned here in terms of community

1246
00:43:34,710 --> 00:43:32,560
moving forward

1247
00:43:38,950 --> 00:43:34,720
yeah it is i mean we said hot potato

1248
00:43:41,829 --> 00:43:38,960
earlier it i think 100 is and um

1249
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:41,839
you know i think

1250
00:43:47,430 --> 00:43:45,359
i i get quite frustrated with the people

1251
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:47,440
who follow the story because they want

1252
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,720
the red meat

1253
00:43:52,630 --> 00:43:50,400
you know they they're looking for the

1254
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:52,640
failure they're looking for

1255
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:53,520
uh

1256
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:56,160
someone to you know kind of flame out in

1257
00:43:59,109 --> 00:43:58,000
a very public fashion

1258
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:59,119
and there's a lot of folks in the

1259
00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:00,400
community that are

1260
00:44:03,910 --> 00:44:02,400
really there for that purpose you know

1261
00:44:06,829 --> 00:44:03,920
just because they

1262
00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:06,839
really get some sense of satisfaction

1263
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:08,640
in uh

1264
00:44:14,230 --> 00:44:11,280
and seeing the kind of uh frustration

1265
00:44:15,990 --> 00:44:14,240
and pain and suffering of other people

1266
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:16,000
um i think that

1267
00:44:20,309 --> 00:44:18,160
is for me at least

1268
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:20,319
a big turn off

1269
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:22,160
and i think you know as a community i

1270
00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:28,710
have the wisdom to be able to discern

1271
00:44:31,349 --> 00:44:30,079
you know

1272
00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:31,359
what

1273
00:44:35,670 --> 00:44:33,280
is is validating

1274
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:35,680
and also and protective

1275
00:44:40,470 --> 00:44:38,400
of experience but also

1276
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:40,480
uh

1277
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:42,480
kind of calling people out who are who

1278
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:44,720
are really hanging on for the wrong

1279
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:45,839
reasons

1280
00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:47,920
um and that's tough i mean you know we

1281
00:44:51,829 --> 00:44:49,680
don't have

1282
00:44:53,829 --> 00:44:51,839
as much as there some people try we

1283
00:44:55,829 --> 00:44:53,839
don't have literal police you know sort

1284
00:44:57,990 --> 00:44:55,839
of who are keeping people in or out of

1285
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:58,000
the community that's not how this works

1286
00:45:01,910 --> 00:45:00,000
um so there really is kind of a place

1287
00:45:05,190 --> 00:45:01,920
for everyone and all opinions and i

1288
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:05,200
think that that's perfectly okay

1289
00:45:10,150 --> 00:45:07,440
but for those who are here you know who

1290
00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:10,160
are experiencers or those who are you

1291
00:45:13,349 --> 00:45:11,760
know sort of looking for truth from a

1292
00:45:15,190 --> 00:45:13,359
scientific perspective who are convinced

1293
00:45:19,349 --> 00:45:15,200
that there is something there i think we

1294
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:19,359
have a responsibility to uh you know

1295
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:20,640
try to

1296
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:22,960
as best we can you know to create a

1297
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:25,119
community that is uh you know sort of

1298
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:27,200
charitable and compassionate

1299
00:45:30,710 --> 00:45:29,119
uh yet also

1300
00:45:34,470 --> 00:45:30,720
you know wise

1301
00:45:35,589 --> 00:45:34,480
and and not kind of enabling uh people

1302
00:45:37,109 --> 00:45:35,599
that maybe

1303
00:45:39,190 --> 00:45:37,119
uh you know

1304
00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:39,200
should not be enabled

1305
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:41,200
not because they may be wrong

1306
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:42,720
or they have no they don't that you know

1307
00:45:46,710 --> 00:45:43,920
we don't think they had a real

1308
00:45:48,790 --> 00:45:46,720
experience but because

1309
00:45:51,589 --> 00:45:48,800
maybe the

1310
00:45:54,069 --> 00:45:51,599
experience that they are proffering

1311
00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:54,079
uh really does not have

1312
00:45:56,309 --> 00:45:55,359
the

1313
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:56,319
uh

1314
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:58,560
you know sort of as you said the the the

1315
00:46:02,069 --> 00:45:59,599
common

1316
00:46:04,309 --> 00:46:02,079
ground that that it needs

1317
00:46:05,670 --> 00:46:04,319
uh for for us to make

1318
00:46:08,309 --> 00:46:05,680
you know

1319
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:08,319
headway and progress in understanding

1320
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:10,640
what this really is you know there is

1321
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:12,400
that sense in which

1322
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:13,359
um

1323
00:46:19,030 --> 00:46:15,599
if we can look at experiences kind of

1324
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:19,040
broadly from a high view and seeing how

1325
00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:20,480
a lot of folks have had similar

1326
00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:23,040
experiences like this throughout time

1327
00:46:26,950 --> 00:46:25,440
but many of them have not panned out you

1328
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:26,960
know that there have been a lot of

1329
00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:30,160
prophetic you know sort of proclamations

1330
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:32,480
and they have not panned out you know

1331
00:46:36,870 --> 00:46:34,720
what is the main takeaway you know from

1332
00:46:40,069 --> 00:46:36,880
that analysis you know what what is it

1333
00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:40,079
that we can can glean from those

1334
00:46:45,030 --> 00:46:42,480
many different instances

1335
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:45,040
of what what some might call madness but

1336
00:46:49,589 --> 00:46:46,400
other you know i don't think we're going

1337
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:49,599
to go there as a in the community

1338
00:46:53,430 --> 00:46:51,520
of folks who are interested in this you

1339
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:53,440
know what is the conclusion that we can

1340
00:46:57,670 --> 00:46:54,480
come to

1341
00:46:59,750 --> 00:46:57,680
that has real explanatory power

1342
00:47:01,990 --> 00:46:59,760
as to what is going on

1343
00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:02,000
and i know you've been working you know

1344
00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:03,520
hard on

1345
00:47:08,309 --> 00:47:06,000
i think crafting and articulating a

1346
00:47:09,589 --> 00:47:08,319
model that does

1347
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:09,599
really

1348
00:47:15,349 --> 00:47:12,480
value and collect these experiences

1349
00:47:18,069 --> 00:47:15,359
and and kind of put them in a in a view

1350
00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:18,079
and a frame that that that respects

1351
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:20,160
what's going on but also has an explan

1352
00:47:26,549 --> 00:47:23,200
explanatory power uh for what

1353
00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:26,559
those experiences are saying to us

1354
00:47:30,790 --> 00:47:28,880
yeah absolutely and i think that um and

1355
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:30,800
that's why i began by saying i think we

1356
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:33,280
really don't want to opt for a binary

1357
00:47:36,309 --> 00:47:34,559
this either happened or it didn't

1358
00:47:37,430 --> 00:47:36,319
because i think it's much more complex

1359
00:47:41,030 --> 00:47:37,440
than that

1360
00:47:42,309 --> 00:47:41,040
um i really do believe a lot of things

1361
00:47:46,549 --> 00:47:42,319
happen

1362
00:47:48,309 --> 00:47:46,559
a different question but that doesn't

1363
00:47:50,630 --> 00:47:48,319
mean they're less real

1364
00:47:51,829 --> 00:47:50,640
um

1365
00:47:54,870 --> 00:47:51,839
you know i think there are certain

1366
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:54,880
elements of reality that a lot of put it

1367
00:47:58,549 --> 00:47:56,880
this way a lot of um

1368
00:48:00,390 --> 00:47:58,559
a lot of radios are tuned to a certain

1369
00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:00,400
radio station so it tends to establish

1370
00:48:05,030 --> 00:48:03,040
that as a really strong signal and that

1371
00:48:08,069 --> 00:48:05,040
creates a feedback loop that becomes a

1372
00:48:10,390 --> 00:48:08,079
strong enhancer of that particular

1373
00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:10,400
objective reality amongst the consensus

1374
00:48:15,349 --> 00:48:12,400
amongst the the totality

1375
00:48:18,870 --> 00:48:15,359
there are other elements of reality that

1376
00:48:21,030 --> 00:48:18,880
happen that sort of overlays within that

1377
00:48:22,710 --> 00:48:21,040
that happen to smaller groups of people

1378
00:48:23,670 --> 00:48:22,720
or individual people

1379
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:23,680
um

1380
00:48:27,349 --> 00:48:25,680
and but those are also real even though

1381
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:27,359
they don't necessarily manifest for the

1382
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:29,280
consensus reality so

1383
00:48:32,870 --> 00:48:31,760
uh and this is a lot to get into um but

1384
00:48:35,829 --> 00:48:32,880
but i think

1385
00:48:38,069 --> 00:48:35,839
yeah what i've what i've tried to do

1386
00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:38,079
what after diving into this for years

1387
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:40,800
was sort of step back and say

1388
00:48:44,230 --> 00:48:42,240
you know what is this telling us you

1389
00:48:46,069 --> 00:48:44,240
know like rather than trying to

1390
00:48:48,069 --> 00:48:46,079
like yes picturing a suitcase it's

1391
00:48:49,829 --> 00:48:48,079
already overstuffed and like shirts are

1392
00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:49,839
hanging out the edges rather than trying

1393
00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:51,520
to shove the ufo phenomenon and hide

1394
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:53,520
strangers into that and say if we could

1395
00:48:57,190 --> 00:48:55,520
just get in here you know the mainstream

1396
00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:57,200
will accept us

1397
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:58,880
maybe if i pack it this way it's not

1398
00:49:02,950 --> 00:49:00,800
working you know

1399
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:02,960
no i think the suitcase is the wrong

1400
00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:04,720
suitcase that that's what this is

1401
00:49:08,950 --> 00:49:06,160
telling us that uh

1402
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:08,960
our model of reality uh is not just

1403
00:49:13,030 --> 00:49:11,280
incomplete but actually a fair ways off

1404
00:49:15,270 --> 00:49:13,040
what is really going on

1405
00:49:18,069 --> 00:49:15,280
and the the the data coming out of the

1406
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:18,079
phenomenon is some of the most important

1407
00:49:21,589 --> 00:49:19,760
data in the world

1408
00:49:23,270 --> 00:49:21,599
which again is the irony that scientists

1409
00:49:25,270 --> 00:49:23,280
often won't touch it because that's

1410
00:49:27,349 --> 00:49:25,280
beginning to change you know even diana

1411
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:27,359
pasulka and people have suggested

1412
00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:29,200
seeing a real change in academia and

1413
00:49:33,190 --> 00:49:31,680
whatnot uh more recently and that's i've

1414
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:33,200
seen signs of that too and that's that's

1415
00:49:36,870 --> 00:49:34,960
encouraging

1416
00:49:38,790 --> 00:49:36,880
but it's it's a it's a big mountain to

1417
00:49:41,589 --> 00:49:38,800
climb because uh it hasn't been the

1418
00:49:43,670 --> 00:49:41,599
consensus view

1419
00:49:47,109 --> 00:49:43,680
so i really do think that we have

1420
00:49:48,710 --> 00:49:47,119
overlapping layers of reality happening

1421
00:49:49,990 --> 00:49:48,720
but they're all real they're just real

1422
00:49:51,270 --> 00:49:50,000
in different ways and i know for a lot

1423
00:49:52,950 --> 00:49:51,280
of people that's going to be confusing

1424
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:52,960
and overwhelming to a topic that's

1425
00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:55,280
already confusing and overwhelming but i

1426
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:57,119
think that's ultimately where the data

1427
00:50:01,190 --> 00:49:59,040
leads and i will be unpacking that more

1428
00:50:02,470 --> 00:50:01,200
over time

1429
00:50:04,309 --> 00:50:02,480
the other thing

1430
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:04,319
i think that that you brought up that i

1431
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:06,160
think is really important to point out

1432
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:12,710
regardless of what position you take um

1433
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:13,920
on these kind of things sort of

1434
00:50:16,630 --> 00:50:15,359
intellectually

1435
00:50:18,309 --> 00:50:16,640
to always

1436
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:18,319
come at this with a with a spirit of

1437
00:50:22,549 --> 00:50:20,400
charity you know and like you said i

1438
00:50:24,390 --> 00:50:22,559
also get really turned off by the the

1439
00:50:26,549 --> 00:50:24,400
people who smell the the fresh meat and

1440
00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:26,559
say this is going to be an easy meal or

1441
00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:27,839
you know this is going to be low hanging

1442
00:50:30,069 --> 00:50:28,800
fruit

1443
00:50:31,670 --> 00:50:30,079
they look forward to the moment where

1444
00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:31,680
they can kind of roast this person

1445
00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:34,319
publicly and and and look great and

1446
00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:36,000
there are some people who

1447
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:38,800
take kind of a sick um satisfaction in

1448
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:40,640
seeing others being put down and it

1449
00:50:44,230 --> 00:50:42,400
temporarily makes them feel better about

1450
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,240
themselves

1451
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:46,559
of course that's a very lowly low

1452
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:48,400
consciousness kind of perspective on how

1453
00:50:54,549 --> 00:50:50,960
to do life and how to do community

1454
00:50:56,150 --> 00:50:54,559
so i would say my my first uh you know

1455
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:56,160
thought and i think we try to encourage

1456
00:50:59,750 --> 00:50:58,000
this a lot is that

1457
00:51:01,190 --> 00:50:59,760
we welcome everyone you know whether

1458
00:51:03,829 --> 00:51:01,200
you're you really have a hard time

1459
00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:03,839
believing any of this is true or you're

1460
00:51:07,670 --> 00:51:05,680
trying to hold a skeptical point of view

1461
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:07,680
and hold out for more information or

1462
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:09,280
you've had experiences yourself and

1463
00:51:12,549 --> 00:51:10,720
you're convinced

1464
00:51:15,510 --> 00:51:12,559
we welcome all those to the conversation

1465
00:51:18,150 --> 00:51:15,520
but let's be respectful uh let's be

1466
00:51:20,150 --> 00:51:18,160
charitable and

1467
00:51:21,750 --> 00:51:20,160
because we're all in the midst of

1468
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:21,760
redefining what reality is i think

1469
00:51:24,069 --> 00:51:23,040
that's really what we're in the business

1470
00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:24,079
of here

1471
00:51:29,829 --> 00:51:26,640
i think charity is the uh the

1472
00:51:34,069 --> 00:51:30,950
yeah

1473
00:51:36,470 --> 00:51:34,079
well we've uh i think we've sufficiently

1474
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:36,480
tackled that one and uh i really enjoyed

1475
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:38,160
it i i've as i said to you before the

1476
00:51:43,349 --> 00:51:40,880
show uh i've i've been wanting to kind

1477
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:43,359
of get my thoughts out on on that story

1478
00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:44,640
for quite some time so i'm glad we

1479
00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:46,400
covered it uh so the next one we're

1480
00:51:51,349 --> 00:51:49,200
going to talk about here is um you know

1481
00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:51,359
also coming back into sort of

1482
00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:53,040
i think the mainstream

1483
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:55,280
awareness uh through a few different

1484
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:58,079
avenues um a couple that i can think of

1485
00:52:02,390 --> 00:52:00,319
off the bat so uh you know one through

1486
00:52:05,190 --> 00:52:02,400
the work that leslie kane's doing

1487
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:05,200
um uh if you've read her book uh

1488
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:06,400
surviving

1489
00:52:09,990 --> 00:52:07,200
death

1490
00:52:13,030 --> 00:52:10,000
uh is uh you know kind of hits on these

1491
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:13,040
topics but more recently than that uh

1492
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:16,079
the work of robert bigelow and the

1493
00:52:18,790 --> 00:52:17,680
bigelow institute for consciousness

1494
00:52:20,470 --> 00:52:18,800
studies

1495
00:52:23,109 --> 00:52:20,480
the bix contest

1496
00:52:25,349 --> 00:52:23,119
that was uh recently concluded

1497
00:52:27,109 --> 00:52:25,359
and the winner of that contest was dr

1498
00:52:29,589 --> 00:52:27,119
jeffrey mishlov

1499
00:52:30,829 --> 00:52:29,599
who put together a really great paper

1500
00:52:33,510 --> 00:52:30,839
it's about

1501
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:33,520
um i've seen about 90 pages it's like a

1502
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:35,440
pdf you can find it online

1503
00:52:39,190 --> 00:52:36,960
really encourage folks to check that out

1504
00:52:42,309 --> 00:52:39,200
because he has a very comprehensive

1505
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:42,319
uh sort of overview of uh really this

1506
00:52:45,349 --> 00:52:44,640
notion of the survival of consciousness

1507
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:45,359
uh

1508
00:52:48,309 --> 00:52:46,800
after death

1509
00:52:49,270 --> 00:52:48,319
and looking at it from a lot of

1510
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:49,280
different

1511
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:51,280
uh you know sort of modalities and it's

1512
00:52:55,109 --> 00:52:52,720
an interactive paper too there's a lot

1513
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:55,119
of videos in there that you can watch uh

1514
00:52:59,190 --> 00:52:57,280
just really chock full of information so

1515
00:53:00,390 --> 00:52:59,200
we're going to get on to the topic of

1516
00:53:02,950 --> 00:53:00,400
near-death experience

1517
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:02,960
and out-of-body experience

1518
00:53:07,670 --> 00:53:05,440
uh past lives you know all the kinds of

1519
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:07,680
things that seem to hint at

1520
00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:10,400
uh there is some sort of persistence of

1521
00:53:15,190 --> 00:53:13,920
conscious experience beyond the physical

1522
00:53:20,150 --> 00:53:15,200
uh

1523
00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:20,160
know exo what what are your thoughts on

1524
00:53:24,150 --> 00:53:22,079
this one how do you even start off with

1525
00:53:26,829 --> 00:53:24,160
this

1526
00:53:30,950 --> 00:53:26,839
well i think

1527
00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:30,960
um first of all it surprises me again uh

1528
00:53:33,829 --> 00:53:31,839
that

1529
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:33,839
so and it's it's sad i think in some

1530
00:53:36,790 --> 00:53:35,040
ways

1531
00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:36,800
that so many people go around

1532
00:53:40,309 --> 00:53:38,640
with all sorts of existential angst

1533
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:40,319
because they're convinced that they're

1534
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:42,640
they're nothing more than the totality

1535
00:53:46,230 --> 00:53:44,880
of electrochemical reactions in a

1536
00:53:48,549 --> 00:53:46,240
physical body

1537
00:53:50,150 --> 00:53:48,559
that's basically going to be dead matter

1538
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:50,160
ultimately and when it you know when it

1539
00:53:54,390 --> 00:53:52,079
dissolves then their experience of the

1540
00:53:57,589 --> 00:53:54,400
world and of reality ends

1541
00:53:59,750 --> 00:53:57,599
uh that it's kind of just a quasi-fluke

1542
00:54:02,390 --> 00:53:59,760
uh you know of evolution

1543
00:54:04,790 --> 00:54:02,400
um like a byproduct that has no meaning

1544
00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:04,800
a lot of people are walking around

1545
00:54:07,430 --> 00:54:06,640
trying to live a somewhat meaningful

1546
00:54:09,109 --> 00:54:07,440
life

1547
00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:09,119
within that frame which is a pretty

1548
00:54:11,670 --> 00:54:10,800
discouraging frame

1549
00:54:14,950 --> 00:54:11,680
um

1550
00:54:16,790 --> 00:54:14,960
but the exciting thing is uh and i wish

1551
00:54:19,430 --> 00:54:16,800
more people knew about it but again

1552
00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:19,440
there's a there's a mainstream

1553
00:54:23,670 --> 00:54:21,599
uh sort of gate peop gatekeepers that

1554
00:54:25,510 --> 00:54:23,680
sort of keep this out because the

1555
00:54:27,190 --> 00:54:25,520
implications kind of take apart the

1556
00:54:29,190 --> 00:54:27,200
model that you know keeps them in power

1557
00:54:31,030 --> 00:54:29,200
to some degree

1558
00:54:33,510 --> 00:54:31,040
um

1559
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:33,520
but yeah there there is

1560
00:54:38,549 --> 00:54:36,480
a lot of evidence going back over a long

1561
00:54:40,710 --> 00:54:38,559
you know decades and decades

1562
00:54:42,069 --> 00:54:40,720
and beyond that even but i mean even

1563
00:54:43,270 --> 00:54:42,079
pretty rigorous studies that have been

1564
00:54:44,950 --> 00:54:43,280
done

1565
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:44,960
suggesting that

1566
00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:47,200
uh consciousness is not a byproduct of

1567
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:48,720
the brain

1568
00:54:52,069 --> 00:54:50,000
um

1569
00:54:53,349 --> 00:54:52,079
and some people call it non-local

1570
00:54:54,870 --> 00:54:53,359
consciousness and that and that's

1571
00:54:59,270 --> 00:54:54,880
speaking of what we just talked about

1572
00:55:01,109 --> 00:54:59,280
with um you know cases like angeli

1573
00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:01,119
that's partly why people can have these

1574
00:55:06,390 --> 00:55:03,520
kinds of experiences and them not be

1575
00:55:07,589 --> 00:55:06,400
like literally real in our 3d plus one

1576
00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:07,599
reality i don't even like that word

1577
00:55:11,109 --> 00:55:09,040
literal because it suggests there's only

1578
00:55:12,630 --> 00:55:11,119
one kind of literal and i don't think

1579
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:12,640
that's that's true

1580
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:14,960
but if our consciousness is not located

1581
00:55:17,910 --> 00:55:16,720
in our brain it's not sitting inside our

1582
00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:17,920
skull

1583
00:55:22,630 --> 00:55:20,559
um then than neither and we talked

1584
00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:22,640
before or i've even talked about them

1585
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:24,720
on point of convergence the idea of

1586
00:55:27,829 --> 00:55:26,720
astral bodies and astral travel and

1587
00:55:29,270 --> 00:55:27,839
projection

1588
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:29,280
um that

1589
00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:32,160
we don't we can still go places and meet

1590
00:55:37,589 --> 00:55:35,200
entities um and have real experiences

1591
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:37,599
that change us that stay with us that

1592
00:55:40,390 --> 00:55:38,880
don't necessarily happen with our

1593
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:40,400
physical body you know we can leave our

1594
00:55:45,030 --> 00:55:42,720
physical body and go still we can go and

1595
00:55:46,230 --> 00:55:45,040
have these experiences and it's because

1596
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:46,240
ultimately

1597
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,000
consciousness consciousness is not a

1598
00:55:52,630 --> 00:55:50,319
byproduct of the brain mind is not

1599
00:55:54,549 --> 00:55:52,640
located in the brain inside the skull

1600
00:55:56,150 --> 00:55:54,559
and so once you start realizing that i

1601
00:55:58,230 --> 00:55:56,160
think it goes beyond that and it comes

1602
00:56:00,829 --> 00:55:58,240
comes back to what i was saying before

1603
00:56:03,270 --> 00:56:00,839
uh kind of an idealist perspective on

1604
00:56:06,069 --> 00:56:03,280
metaphysics that ultimately

1605
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:06,079
uh our notion that reality is about

1606
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:08,000
physical stuff is actually i think a

1607
00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:09,200
misnomer

1608
00:56:12,470 --> 00:56:11,040
um and that's part of the irony here is

1609
00:56:14,069 --> 00:56:12,480
that when we say

1610
00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:14,079
okay tell us did it happen to her in

1611
00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:16,960
reality in physical reality or not

1612
00:56:20,470 --> 00:56:18,720
i think that's the wrong question and

1613
00:56:22,309 --> 00:56:20,480
that that's again

1614
00:56:24,950 --> 00:56:22,319
part of the problem when you have a an

1615
00:56:28,069 --> 00:56:24,960
entitlement or kind of perspective on

1616
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:28,079
reality then you you just like what

1617
00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:30,400
happened to john mack at harvard again

1618
00:56:33,670 --> 00:56:32,160
they asked these either or questions as

1619
00:56:35,430 --> 00:56:33,680
if there's nothing else on the table

1620
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:35,440
right and and

1621
00:56:38,789 --> 00:56:36,480
and

1622
00:56:40,549 --> 00:56:38,799
i think what this phenomenon does more

1623
00:56:42,789 --> 00:56:40,559
than anything else is it it shows us the

1624
00:56:44,950 --> 00:56:42,799
poverty of our questions you know not

1625
00:56:47,109 --> 00:56:44,960
our answers but our questions the

1626
00:56:49,510 --> 00:56:47,119
questions we ask are not deep enough not

1627
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:49,520
profound enough don't reach far enough

1628
00:56:54,309 --> 00:56:52,160
um based on what the the the data is

1629
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:54,319
suggesting

1630
00:56:59,270 --> 00:56:57,119
so all that is to say yes

1631
00:57:00,549 --> 00:56:59,280
there is not only is there lots of

1632
00:57:02,789 --> 00:57:00,559
evidence for

1633
00:57:05,109 --> 00:57:02,799
near-death experiences suggesting that

1634
00:57:06,870 --> 00:57:05,119
uh you know consciousness survives

1635
00:57:08,870 --> 00:57:06,880
bodily death

1636
00:57:11,109 --> 00:57:08,880
um

1637
00:57:13,349 --> 00:57:11,119
and there's you know plenty of cases i

1638
00:57:15,510 --> 00:57:13,359
remember coming across a case recently

1639
00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:15,520
or some research that was being done

1640
00:57:20,710 --> 00:57:18,640
on past lives where

1641
00:57:22,309 --> 00:57:20,720
there was pretty robust research being

1642
00:57:24,630 --> 00:57:22,319
done where

1643
00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:24,640
children especially up to a certain age

1644
00:57:29,829 --> 00:57:27,680
seem to have pretty dramatic uh and

1645
00:57:31,750 --> 00:57:29,839
specific information about a past life

1646
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:31,760
we're not just talking generalities like

1647
00:57:36,150 --> 00:57:33,680
i was like i was a captain on a pirate

1648
00:57:38,230 --> 00:57:36,160
ship you know and something like that uh

1649
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:38,240
or i was you know cleopatra in a

1650
00:57:42,789 --> 00:57:40,960
different previous life but like no my

1651
00:57:44,309 --> 00:57:42,799
name was so-and-so and my family lived

1652
00:57:46,870 --> 00:57:44,319
here and this is my sister's name and

1653
00:57:49,030 --> 00:57:46,880
she had a she had a you know a scar on

1654
00:57:51,109 --> 00:57:49,040
her ankle because she fell when we were

1655
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:51,119
six years old kind of thing

1656
00:57:55,430 --> 00:57:53,440
stuff that is not part of the public

1657
00:57:57,510 --> 00:57:55,440
domain right like it's the only it's

1658
00:58:00,040 --> 00:57:57,520
insider information you would only know

1659
00:58:01,349 --> 00:58:00,050
right if you were actually there

1660
00:58:03,670 --> 00:58:01,359
[Music]

1661
00:58:05,349 --> 00:58:03,680
and they've been able to go in and trace

1662
00:58:07,910 --> 00:58:05,359
these stories many of them you know like

1663
00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:07,920
there's quite a robust uh collection of

1664
00:58:10,710 --> 00:58:09,359
data now

1665
00:58:12,870 --> 00:58:10,720
where they'll be able to track down

1666
00:58:15,910 --> 00:58:12,880
these families and confirm all these

1667
00:58:19,430 --> 00:58:16,630
so

1668
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:19,440
that again is just pretty robust data

1669
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:21,599
suggesting that absolutely

1670
00:58:25,270 --> 00:58:23,680
we are um

1671
00:58:27,349 --> 00:58:25,280
much more than

1672
00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:27,359
our physical body and on top of that we

1673
00:58:31,349 --> 00:58:29,200
seem to have multiple iterations of a

1674
00:58:33,750 --> 00:58:31,359
physical body of a consciousness that

1675
00:58:35,270 --> 00:58:33,760
evolves and iterates over time

1676
00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:35,280
um

1677
00:58:39,910 --> 00:58:37,920
so and we can get i'll

1678
00:58:41,349 --> 00:58:39,920
toss it back to you but you know from

1679
00:58:42,950 --> 00:58:41,359
that what's also interesting we can get

1680
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:42,960
into later on is that

1681
00:58:47,430 --> 00:58:45,599
not only is there uh sort of a a subtle

1682
00:58:49,589 --> 00:58:47,440
connection with the ufo phenomenon in

1683
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:49,599
that sense of like these

1684
00:58:53,270 --> 00:58:51,200
altered state of consciousness and these

1685
00:58:56,150 --> 00:58:53,280
other realms but there's even cases

1686
00:58:57,829 --> 00:58:56,160
where you know aliens and supposedly

1687
00:59:00,309 --> 00:58:57,839
deceased relatives show up in the same

1688
00:59:03,190 --> 00:59:00,319
setting so um there's sometimes direct

1689
00:59:08,309 --> 00:59:05,990
yeah i you know i love this one um

1690
00:59:10,710 --> 00:59:08,319
so i think it's um

1691
00:59:12,069 --> 00:59:10,720
it's one of my favorite aspects of the

1692
00:59:14,069 --> 00:59:12,079
phenomenon

1693
00:59:17,910 --> 00:59:14,079
and as you said there's quite a bit of

1694
00:59:18,950 --> 00:59:17,920
of very compelling uh data that exists

1695
00:59:22,069 --> 00:59:18,960
uh

1696
00:59:23,510 --> 00:59:22,079
about this about the reality of

1697
00:59:24,950 --> 00:59:23,520
persistence and survival of

1698
00:59:26,390 --> 00:59:24,960
consciousness or

1699
00:59:28,390 --> 00:59:26,400
um

1700
00:59:30,309 --> 00:59:28,400
you know we kind of forget i think that

1701
00:59:33,030 --> 00:59:30,319
everything takes place

1702
00:59:35,670 --> 00:59:33,040
within mind space you know so

1703
00:59:36,549 --> 00:59:35,680
we we like to talk about our dreams and

1704
00:59:39,190 --> 00:59:36,559
uh

1705
00:59:41,349 --> 00:59:39,200
oh that was a dream just in in my mind

1706
00:59:43,190 --> 00:59:41,359
you know well you know this conversation

1707
00:59:44,789 --> 00:59:43,200
we're having right now is happening in

1708
00:59:47,670 --> 00:59:44,799
my mind you know

1709
00:59:49,670 --> 00:59:47,680
um our minds are are creating everything

1710
00:59:53,270 --> 00:59:49,680
that we experience

1711
00:59:55,349 --> 00:59:53,280
um and as hard as we are you know sort

1712
00:59:56,950 --> 00:59:55,359
of try in our sort of

1713
00:59:59,349 --> 00:59:56,960
uh

1714
01:00:03,190 --> 00:59:59,359
reductionist materialistic you know kind

1715
01:00:05,589 --> 01:00:03,200
of view of the world to to verify

1716
01:00:07,990 --> 01:00:05,599
the real quote-unquote stuff

1717
01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:08,000
that exists uh the more and more we are

1718
01:00:14,390 --> 01:00:12,160
finding that that that stuff isn't uh

1719
01:00:17,270 --> 01:00:14,400
as real as we think it is um that it's

1720
01:00:19,829 --> 01:00:17,280
not you know it may seem solid but it is

1721
01:00:22,150 --> 01:00:19,839
not really that when you really get down

1722
01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:22,160
at the sort of fundamental level there's

1723
01:00:27,510 --> 01:00:25,040
there is strange behavior happening uh

1724
01:00:28,390 --> 01:00:27,520
and quantum physics has uh pointed at

1725
01:00:30,309 --> 01:00:28,400
this

1726
01:00:32,390 --> 01:00:30,319
for for a very long time it's not like

1727
01:00:34,870 --> 01:00:32,400
it this came around you know a decade

1728
01:00:37,190 --> 01:00:34,880
ago this has been decades in the making

1729
01:00:39,910 --> 01:00:37,200
and i will say too that the thing that i

1730
01:00:42,230 --> 01:00:39,920
like about this topic in particular is

1731
01:00:43,270 --> 01:00:42,240
that it for me it's kind of a redemption

1732
01:00:48,390 --> 01:00:43,280
of

1733
01:00:51,190 --> 01:00:48,400
in the human family that that we can

1734
01:00:52,870 --> 01:00:51,200
look back on and go okay well maybe this

1735
01:00:55,030 --> 01:00:52,880
maybe they weren't as

1736
01:00:57,910 --> 01:00:55,040
sort of wacky crazy

1737
01:00:58,950 --> 01:00:57,920
you know people as as we like to as

1738
01:00:59,990 --> 01:00:58,960
believe

1739
01:01:02,150 --> 01:01:00,000
um

1740
01:01:04,069 --> 01:01:02,160
you know i i can remember just growing

1741
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:04,079
up and for sure this is a common

1742
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:05,760
experience and at least in the western

1743
01:01:10,710 --> 01:01:08,880
world you know reading about ancient uh

1744
01:01:12,470 --> 01:01:10,720
cultures and

1745
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:12,480
beliefs and practices and just thinking

1746
01:01:15,829 --> 01:01:13,920
man what a bunch of

1747
01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:15,839
you know crazy people who just had these

1748
01:01:19,109 --> 01:01:17,760
insane you know sort of

1749
01:01:20,950 --> 01:01:19,119
notions about

1750
01:01:23,109 --> 01:01:20,960
uh you know what was really going on

1751
01:01:25,430 --> 01:01:23,119
with the nature of reality is and you

1752
01:01:26,390 --> 01:01:25,440
almost almost thinking that those people

1753
01:01:28,950 --> 01:01:26,400
were

1754
01:01:32,470 --> 01:01:28,960
uh just dumb you know just didn't have

1755
01:01:34,390 --> 01:01:32,480
the intellectual capability that we have

1756
01:01:36,069 --> 01:01:34,400
in our modern era

1757
01:01:39,190 --> 01:01:36,079
and i think we really need to sort of

1758
01:01:41,750 --> 01:01:39,200
check that assumption we need to

1759
01:01:44,069 --> 01:01:41,760
be very careful about uh you know kind

1760
01:01:46,789 --> 01:01:44,079
of stigmatizing our

1761
01:01:48,309 --> 01:01:46,799
our ancient families uh in this way uh

1762
01:01:50,069 --> 01:01:48,319
it's not to say that they had it all

1763
01:01:51,750 --> 01:01:50,079
figured out it just just as it's not to

1764
01:01:53,910 --> 01:01:51,760
say that we do you know there will be

1765
01:01:56,630 --> 01:01:53,920
future generations from us who will look

1766
01:01:57,349 --> 01:01:56,640
back at our time uh just as we look back

1767
01:01:59,430 --> 01:01:57,359
at

1768
01:02:01,670 --> 01:01:59,440
people living in the in the 1600s and

1769
01:02:03,349 --> 01:02:01,680
the 1700s and thinking about all the

1770
01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:03,359
funny things that they did

1771
01:02:08,390 --> 01:02:05,520
uh that they that they found meaningful

1772
01:02:11,190 --> 01:02:08,400
and the models that they shared that

1773
01:02:12,549 --> 01:02:11,200
they felt adequately explained the world

1774
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:12,559
around them so

1775
01:02:17,430 --> 01:02:14,960
uh i know that's kind of a very kind of

1776
01:02:18,870 --> 01:02:17,440
macroscopic commentary on this on this

1777
01:02:21,829 --> 01:02:18,880
topic

1778
01:02:23,589 --> 01:02:21,839
but you know i very much think that uh

1779
01:02:26,710 --> 01:02:23,599
the

1780
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:26,720
uh

1781
01:02:29,510 --> 01:02:28,640
this you know sort of

1782
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:29,520
base

1783
01:02:35,430 --> 01:02:32,480
of of reality that is our conscious mind

1784
01:02:39,270 --> 01:02:35,440
you know to me is very

1785
01:02:42,390 --> 01:02:39,280
it's it's compelling it's uh it's

1786
01:02:43,990 --> 01:02:42,400
energizing um it should really

1787
01:02:46,309 --> 01:02:44,000
in my opinion like

1788
01:02:47,829 --> 01:02:46,319
get get folks very excited you know and

1789
01:02:49,750 --> 01:02:47,839
and i i would also say that it's

1790
01:02:52,069 --> 01:02:49,760
probably pretty rare for people to not

1791
01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:52,079
know someone who's had something

1792
01:02:55,589 --> 01:02:54,000
like this happen to them or someone that

1793
01:02:57,589 --> 01:02:55,599
they know in their life

1794
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:57,599
uh you know i certainly have a family

1795
01:03:02,710 --> 01:03:00,559
member who when he was a teenager

1796
01:03:05,270 --> 01:03:02,720
he was playing soccer and he got you

1797
01:03:07,270 --> 01:03:05,280
know heavily concussed or something and

1798
01:03:09,589 --> 01:03:07,280
and he had an out-of-body experience

1799
01:03:11,910 --> 01:03:09,599
like you know he could see his body he

1800
01:03:13,510 --> 01:03:11,920
could explain things that were happening

1801
01:03:15,670 --> 01:03:13,520
you know around the field that he would

1802
01:03:19,270 --> 01:03:15,680
not have been able to see

1803
01:03:21,109 --> 01:03:19,280
so i how do you reconcile that um

1804
01:03:23,029 --> 01:03:21,119
i think it's it's very challenging to do

1805
01:03:24,309 --> 01:03:23,039
to do so

1806
01:03:26,630 --> 01:03:24,319
yeah absolutely

1807
01:03:28,710 --> 01:03:26,640
and uh you know i think numerous things

1808
01:03:31,270 --> 01:03:28,720
i i want to say based on some some great

1809
01:03:32,630 --> 01:03:31,280
stuff you said there um

1810
01:03:33,910 --> 01:03:32,640
yeah i was thinking about in terms of

1811
01:03:35,670 --> 01:03:33,920
what you said with your friend playing

1812
01:03:37,750 --> 01:03:35,680
soccer there's cases you know where

1813
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:37,760
someone had uh you know flatlined in a

1814
01:03:41,029 --> 01:03:39,119
hospital right

1815
01:03:42,710 --> 01:03:41,039
and so they they pictured leaving their

1816
01:03:44,710 --> 01:03:42,720
body flying out the window going over

1817
01:03:47,029 --> 01:03:44,720
top the roof and they happen to notice

1818
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:47,039
like a red sneaker upside down in the

1819
01:03:50,309 --> 01:03:49,359
corner you know um

1820
01:03:51,750 --> 01:03:50,319
and

1821
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:51,760
like even a section in a section you

1822
01:03:54,470 --> 01:03:53,520
can't even really get to you know what i

1823
01:03:56,789 --> 01:03:54,480
mean like you literally would have to

1824
01:03:58,230 --> 01:03:56,799
like fly over in a helicopter to see it

1825
01:04:00,549 --> 01:03:58,240
they go and check and sure enough

1826
01:04:04,150 --> 01:04:00,559
there's this red sneaker there um

1827
01:04:05,829 --> 01:04:04,160
you know or or people will be able to um

1828
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:05,839
pick up conversations that the doctors

1829
01:04:09,190 --> 01:04:07,520
and the nurses had

1830
01:04:10,870 --> 01:04:09,200
while they were supposedly completely

1831
01:04:13,349 --> 01:04:10,880
flat-lined no

1832
01:04:15,029 --> 01:04:13,359
uh you know no cognitive

1833
01:04:16,150 --> 01:04:15,039
functionality at all apparently right so

1834
01:04:18,230 --> 01:04:16,160
they shouldn't have been able to form

1835
01:04:19,829 --> 01:04:18,240
memories and yet you know people are

1836
01:04:21,510 --> 01:04:19,839
shocked by this

1837
01:04:23,190 --> 01:04:21,520
after the fact

1838
01:04:25,109 --> 01:04:23,200
and the irony is you can talk to you

1839
01:04:26,549 --> 01:04:25,119
know lifelong nurses and doctors who

1840
01:04:27,670 --> 01:04:26,559
will be honest with you

1841
01:04:29,270 --> 01:04:27,680
and say

1842
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:29,280
they come across these cases all the

1843
01:04:32,309 --> 01:04:30,960
time and yet the irony is they can't

1844
01:04:33,270 --> 01:04:32,319
talk about them in the mainstream

1845
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:33,280
because

1846
01:04:39,029 --> 01:04:36,720
it's still uh considered you know

1847
01:04:41,910 --> 01:04:39,039
uh you know kind of heretical to talk

1848
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:45,589
yeah and i think

1849
01:04:49,430 --> 01:04:47,029
that's the thing with all these

1850
01:04:51,910 --> 01:04:49,440
different topics that we are discussing

1851
01:04:54,390 --> 01:04:51,920
today and reason why i called my my

1852
01:04:55,510 --> 01:04:54,400
podcast point of convergence is because

1853
01:04:57,510 --> 01:04:55,520
we're looking for some sort of

1854
01:04:59,750 --> 01:04:57,520
overarching model that has explanatory

1855
01:05:01,829 --> 01:04:59,760
power for all of them so

1856
01:05:03,510 --> 01:05:01,839
you can't just make this about ufos i

1857
01:05:05,990 --> 01:05:03,520
mean some people come in

1858
01:05:08,549 --> 01:05:06,000
excited about the idea of ets flying

1859
01:05:10,230 --> 01:05:08,559
cool spacecraft right

1860
01:05:12,069 --> 01:05:10,240
but you don't have to be in this field

1861
01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:12,079
for very long before you run into the

1862
01:05:14,789 --> 01:05:13,920
high strangeness and the paranormality

1863
01:05:16,789 --> 01:05:14,799
and

1864
01:05:19,910 --> 01:05:16,799
um the way that people are changed

1865
01:05:21,589 --> 01:05:19,920
permanently you know um

1866
01:05:23,190 --> 01:05:21,599
we both watched recently an interview

1867
01:05:25,270 --> 01:05:23,200
with kevin day

1868
01:05:27,349 --> 01:05:25,280
who was part of the whole nimitz tic tac

1869
01:05:29,270 --> 01:05:27,359
event and

1870
01:05:31,670 --> 01:05:29,280
on the on the surface of that that looks

1871
01:05:33,109 --> 01:05:31,680
like a fairly clean situation where nuts

1872
01:05:35,430 --> 01:05:33,119
and bolts people get excited because

1873
01:05:36,390 --> 01:05:35,440
they say hey we've got not only expert

1874
01:05:38,630 --> 01:05:36,400
witnesses

1875
01:05:40,710 --> 01:05:38,640
from f-18s who saw these things up close

1876
01:05:43,109 --> 01:05:40,720
but we've got sensor data

1877
01:05:44,789 --> 01:05:43,119
all sorts of you know uh accounting that

1878
01:05:47,029 --> 01:05:44,799
this this really happened right and this

1879
01:05:49,109 --> 01:05:47,039
is finally the case that seemed to

1880
01:05:50,789 --> 01:05:49,119
um catch the attention of congress and

1881
01:05:52,390 --> 01:05:50,799
yet

1882
01:05:54,549 --> 01:05:52,400
someone like him talks about being

1883
01:05:56,069 --> 01:05:54,559
completely changed like

1884
01:05:58,549 --> 01:05:56,079
he says they

1885
01:06:00,789 --> 01:05:58,559
changed him right like he was somehow

1886
01:06:02,789 --> 01:06:00,799
his passions his interest his way of

1887
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:02,799
seeing the world it all changed as a

1888
01:06:05,829 --> 01:06:04,400
result of this experience

1889
01:06:08,309 --> 01:06:05,839
so we're not talking about some sort of

1890
01:06:10,150 --> 01:06:08,319
indirect aha that's interesting if these

1891
01:06:12,470 --> 01:06:10,160
guys are around let me think differently

1892
01:06:14,789 --> 01:06:12,480
no it's like something again i think

1893
01:06:15,589 --> 01:06:14,799
it's sort of an idealist kind of overlay

1894
01:06:17,510 --> 01:06:15,599
of

1895
01:06:19,270 --> 01:06:17,520
mental

1896
01:06:22,230 --> 01:06:19,280
experience

1897
01:06:25,430 --> 01:06:22,240
so much so that it changes us like uh it

1898
01:06:27,589 --> 01:06:25,440
may show up even in our dna you know our

1899
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:27,599
dna may even look different

1900
01:06:31,349 --> 01:06:29,039
that doesn't mean to me that it's

1901
01:06:33,349 --> 01:06:31,359
happening on the level of dna i think

1902
01:06:35,670 --> 01:06:33,359
the dna changes the reflection of

1903
01:06:37,829 --> 01:06:35,680
something that's happening in overlying

1904
01:06:39,109 --> 01:06:37,839
overlaying mental experience

1905
01:06:40,309 --> 01:06:39,119
and again i know that's going to be

1906
01:06:41,670 --> 01:06:40,319
complex for a lot of people to

1907
01:06:44,150 --> 01:06:41,680
understand

1908
01:06:47,109 --> 01:06:44,160
but getting back to your point

1909
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:47,119
yes absolutely historical religions

1910
01:06:51,190 --> 01:06:49,200
spiritual traditions have talked about

1911
01:06:52,789 --> 01:06:51,200
an idealist perspective on reality for a

1912
01:06:55,190 --> 01:06:52,799
long long time

1913
01:06:56,230 --> 01:06:55,200
uh that ultimately everything is mind

1914
01:06:57,750 --> 01:06:56,240
and

1915
01:06:59,190 --> 01:06:57,760
that in the same way that you can be in

1916
01:07:00,950 --> 01:06:59,200
a dream

1917
01:07:02,630 --> 01:07:00,960
and it can feel completely real and

1918
01:07:03,750 --> 01:07:02,640
while you're in it you have no reason to

1919
01:07:05,270 --> 01:07:03,760
doubt it

1920
01:07:07,349 --> 01:07:05,280
unless you get really good at you know

1921
01:07:09,109 --> 01:07:07,359
lucid dreaming and that kind of thing

1922
01:07:09,990 --> 01:07:09,119
um

1923
01:07:11,430 --> 01:07:10,000
but

1924
01:07:13,829 --> 01:07:11,440
the only thing that really if you think

1925
01:07:15,750 --> 01:07:13,839
about it that makes us think this is

1926
01:07:18,549 --> 01:07:15,760
different the waking reality is because

1927
01:07:19,589 --> 01:07:18,559
we're all sharing this collective dream

1928
01:07:21,670 --> 01:07:19,599
and so

1929
01:07:23,589 --> 01:07:21,680
we sort of by default say okay this this

1930
01:07:25,750 --> 01:07:23,599
will be the baseline for reality and

1931
01:07:28,549 --> 01:07:25,760
everything else is kind of just

1932
01:07:31,029 --> 01:07:28,559
you know some sort of manifestation of

1933
01:07:34,470 --> 01:07:31,039
you know my my brain just working stuff

1934
01:07:36,069 --> 01:07:34,480
out uh in in the middle of the night

1935
01:07:37,750 --> 01:07:36,079
and yet when you really get down to it

1936
01:07:41,750 --> 01:07:37,760
we have no reason to believe that this

1937
01:07:43,510 --> 01:07:41,760
is any less of a dreamscape ultimately

1938
01:07:45,589 --> 01:07:43,520
then than that there are some people who

1939
01:07:47,349 --> 01:07:45,599
have dreams that that last for seven

1940
01:07:48,710 --> 01:07:47,359
years that's experientially they last

1941
01:07:51,349 --> 01:07:48,720
for seven years even though they wake up

1942
01:07:53,589 --> 01:07:51,359
and it's only been eight hours so

1943
01:07:56,950 --> 01:07:53,599
again even the the uh

1944
01:07:58,789 --> 01:07:56,960
the consistency uh you know of this

1945
01:08:00,870 --> 01:07:58,799
sort of shared dreamscape doesn't tell

1946
01:08:03,670 --> 01:08:00,880
us that it's therefore more real that

1947
01:08:05,109 --> 01:08:03,680
again it's it's all relative so

1948
01:08:07,349 --> 01:08:05,119
and i think it's also important to

1949
01:08:08,950 --> 01:08:07,359
remember that

1950
01:08:11,430 --> 01:08:08,960
we've talked about this before as well

1951
01:08:14,230 --> 01:08:11,440
that in human civilization we tend to

1952
01:08:16,390 --> 01:08:14,240
shift from one world view to another and

1953
01:08:17,990 --> 01:08:16,400
kind of like a pendulum swing we do that

1954
01:08:20,870 --> 01:08:18,000
so rather than

1955
01:08:22,870 --> 01:08:20,880
you know making um you know reasonable

1956
01:08:24,550 --> 01:08:22,880
shifts based on new data

1957
01:08:26,390 --> 01:08:24,560
we tend to

1958
01:08:28,789 --> 01:08:26,400
have these moments where a revolution

1959
01:08:31,349 --> 01:08:28,799
happens and we tend to

1960
01:08:33,030 --> 01:08:31,359
like overly swing the pendulum and say

1961
01:08:33,829 --> 01:08:33,040
everything about the previous conception

1962
01:08:41,669 --> 01:08:33,839
is

1963
01:08:44,870 --> 01:08:41,679
world now

1964
01:08:47,669 --> 01:08:44,880
and uh you know i recently heard um

1965
01:08:49,269 --> 01:08:47,679
jeffrey talk about this and he

1966
01:08:50,309 --> 01:08:49,279
said this funny thing he said that you

1967
01:08:51,590 --> 01:08:50,319
know

1968
01:08:53,269 --> 01:08:51,600
um

1969
01:08:55,510 --> 01:08:53,279
sort of by default we go around saying

1970
01:08:57,910 --> 01:08:55,520
that reductionistic materialism is true

1971
01:08:59,990 --> 01:08:57,920
because refrigerators exist

1972
01:09:02,950 --> 01:09:00,000
and what he meant by that was

1973
01:09:04,789 --> 01:09:02,960
the power by which physicalism

1974
01:09:06,470 --> 01:09:04,799
has been able to change our world has

1975
01:09:09,030 --> 01:09:06,480
been able to harness nature in such a

1976
01:09:11,669 --> 01:09:09,040
way to transform our civilization extend

1977
01:09:13,669 --> 01:09:11,679
our lifetimes you know build modern

1978
01:09:15,269 --> 01:09:13,679
technology and whatnot but because it

1979
01:09:17,349 --> 01:09:15,279
has so much power to transform our

1980
01:09:20,309 --> 01:09:17,359
experience of reality

1981
01:09:22,229 --> 01:09:20,319
we therefore by de facto say it must be

1982
01:09:25,189 --> 01:09:22,239
the explanatory

1983
01:09:28,149 --> 01:09:25,199
ultimate reason behind reality um when

1984
01:09:29,510 --> 01:09:28,159
it's not it's uh it really comes down to

1985
01:09:31,910 --> 01:09:29,520
you know you think about a kid playing a

1986
01:09:34,390 --> 01:09:31,920
video game they can get really good at

1987
01:09:36,309 --> 01:09:34,400
understanding how to push what button do

1988
01:09:39,510 --> 01:09:36,319
what at what time when to jump over the

1989
01:09:40,470 --> 01:09:39,520
swamp when to swat at the alligator

1990
01:09:42,550 --> 01:09:40,480
you know

1991
01:09:45,110 --> 01:09:42,560
and it can be extremely successful that

1992
01:09:47,110 --> 01:09:45,120
doesn't necessarily mean that kid

1993
01:09:49,910 --> 01:09:47,120
understands reality it just means they

1994
01:09:51,829 --> 01:09:49,920
understand how to play the game and

1995
01:09:53,349 --> 01:09:51,839
science and even applied physics is

1996
01:09:54,870 --> 01:09:53,359
ultimately about

1997
01:09:56,950 --> 01:09:54,880
trying to

1998
01:09:59,270 --> 01:09:56,960
model and predict nature and we've

1999
01:10:01,990 --> 01:09:59,280
gotten really good at that at modeling

2000
01:10:03,990 --> 01:10:02,000
and predicting how nature will behave

2001
01:10:05,350 --> 01:10:04,000
which has allowed us to develop modern

2002
01:10:07,189 --> 01:10:05,360
technology that's transformed our

2003
01:10:09,910 --> 01:10:07,199
civilization that doesn't mean we

2004
01:10:11,990 --> 01:10:09,920
actually know what nature is that it's a

2005
01:10:13,830 --> 01:10:12,000
completely separate question many people

2006
01:10:15,590 --> 01:10:13,840
don't realize that and many

2007
01:10:17,189 --> 01:10:15,600
sort of mainstream physicalists sort of

2008
01:10:18,950 --> 01:10:17,199
take as a default that because they've

2009
01:10:20,229 --> 01:10:18,960
been able to transform civil transform

2010
01:10:22,390 --> 01:10:20,239
civilization

2011
01:10:23,990 --> 01:10:22,400
they get to be the gatekeepers on what

2012
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:24,000
counts as real

2013
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:26,000
and we kind of de facto give that to

2014
01:10:29,669 --> 01:10:27,360
them too i think that's something we

2015
01:10:31,030 --> 01:10:29,679
have to reckon with as well

2016
01:10:33,669 --> 01:10:31,040
so

2017
01:10:37,110 --> 01:10:33,679
but the last point i wanted to make uh

2018
01:10:41,189 --> 01:10:37,120
based on something you said too was um

2019
01:10:43,669 --> 01:10:41,199
well again speaking of this pendulum

2020
01:10:45,669 --> 01:10:43,679
science and you know the enlightenment

2021
01:10:48,790 --> 01:10:45,679
and the renaissance

2022
01:10:51,430 --> 01:10:48,800
all that sort of came as a reaction

2023
01:10:52,189 --> 01:10:51,440
right to the middle ages and

2024
01:10:55,030 --> 01:10:52,199
uh

2025
01:10:56,950 --> 01:10:55,040
religiosity and

2026
01:10:59,910 --> 01:10:56,960
outdated notions of reality and giving

2027
01:11:01,350 --> 01:10:59,920
all the gatekeeper power to priests

2028
01:11:03,830 --> 01:11:01,360
right and the church and things like

2029
01:11:06,229 --> 01:11:03,840
that and so we swung the other way and

2030
01:11:07,910 --> 01:11:06,239
said let's reject everything that even

2031
01:11:10,870 --> 01:11:07,920
smells like that

2032
01:11:13,990 --> 01:11:10,880
and embrace physicalism modern science

2033
01:11:15,590 --> 01:11:14,000
and because it can model nature well and

2034
01:11:17,669 --> 01:11:15,600
produce things for us we'll just go

2035
01:11:18,709 --> 01:11:17,679
there

2036
01:11:20,229 --> 01:11:18,719
but

2037
01:11:22,149 --> 01:11:20,239
you know

2038
01:11:23,990 --> 01:11:22,159
i think a much more prudent way to move

2039
01:11:25,430 --> 01:11:24,000
forward and again my background in

2040
01:11:26,790 --> 01:11:25,440
integral theory

2041
01:11:28,950 --> 01:11:26,800
informs this

2042
01:11:30,870 --> 01:11:28,960
is that we should always transcend and

2043
01:11:31,990 --> 01:11:30,880
include the previous worldview and the

2044
01:11:32,950 --> 01:11:32,000
lessons

2045
01:11:34,229 --> 01:11:32,960
and so

2046
01:11:38,790 --> 01:11:34,239
as

2047
01:11:42,229 --> 01:11:38,800
the idea is to begin with the notion

2048
01:11:43,430 --> 01:11:42,239
that any model of reality that's been

2049
01:11:45,030 --> 01:11:43,440
that's held sway in a certain

2050
01:11:46,470 --> 01:11:45,040
civilization in some part of the world

2051
01:11:48,149 --> 01:11:46,480
in some era

2052
01:11:49,590 --> 01:11:48,159
probably had something going for it

2053
01:11:52,550 --> 01:11:49,600
otherwise they wouldn't have adopted

2054
01:11:55,189 --> 01:11:52,560
that so we can take the valid things the

2055
01:11:57,110 --> 01:11:55,199
useful things that that even points

2056
01:11:58,790 --> 01:11:57,120
towards and take that with us moving

2057
01:12:01,110 --> 01:11:58,800
forward rather than this sort of silly

2058
01:12:02,950 --> 01:12:01,120
pendulum swing we tend to do which is

2059
01:12:05,750 --> 01:12:02,960
reject everything that even

2060
01:12:08,229 --> 01:12:05,760
like connotates like that associates

2061
01:12:10,390 --> 01:12:08,239
with that and only take the new and i

2062
01:12:11,750 --> 01:12:10,400
think as we get better about doing that

2063
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:11,760
we'll have a much more holistic

2064
01:12:15,750 --> 01:12:14,400
understanding of reality and and and

2065
01:12:18,390 --> 01:12:15,760
learn that even

2066
01:12:20,790 --> 01:12:18,400
some uh you know ancient tribal

2067
01:12:23,350 --> 01:12:20,800
traditions shamanic traditions have been

2068
01:12:25,590 --> 01:12:23,360
dealing with and been okay with uh

2069
01:12:27,830 --> 01:12:25,600
something like the phenomenon and

2070
01:12:31,430 --> 01:12:27,840
sophisticated non-human intelligence for

2071
01:12:35,350 --> 01:12:33,110
you know i think that the the things

2072
01:12:37,669 --> 01:12:35,360
that you've talked about there

2073
01:12:38,870 --> 01:12:37,679
um you know they they are quite

2074
01:12:39,750 --> 01:12:38,880
challenging you know particularly

2075
01:12:40,550 --> 01:12:39,760
because

2076
01:12:42,709 --> 01:12:40,560
uh

2077
01:12:44,630 --> 01:12:42,719
even though we can

2078
01:12:47,110 --> 01:12:44,640
you know kind of in a way write this on

2079
01:12:48,870 --> 01:12:47,120
a chalkboard um

2080
01:12:50,630 --> 01:12:48,880
we we can lose sight of the fact that we

2081
01:12:53,189 --> 01:12:50,640
are it's like the air we breathe you

2082
01:12:55,510 --> 01:12:53,199
know the the this physicalism

2083
01:12:57,270 --> 01:12:55,520
uh materialism like literally is

2084
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:57,280
something that we

2085
01:13:01,189 --> 01:13:00,000
are born into and is a part of the

2086
01:13:03,350 --> 01:13:01,199
fabric

2087
01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:03,360
of the world that we understand

2088
01:13:05,990 --> 01:13:05,040
from the very beginning

2089
01:13:09,750 --> 01:13:06,000
and so

2090
01:13:12,310 --> 01:13:09,760
i i think what the indies

2091
01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:12,320
and similar experiences do is they

2092
01:13:17,030 --> 01:13:15,040
they really confront us with this

2093
01:13:18,390 --> 01:13:17,040
other way of being other way of knowing

2094
01:13:21,430 --> 01:13:18,400
and understanding

2095
01:13:22,870 --> 01:13:21,440
that is in stark contrast to to to this

2096
01:13:25,189 --> 01:13:22,880
comfort zone

2097
01:13:26,870 --> 01:13:25,199
and we instinctively

2098
01:13:28,630 --> 01:13:26,880
and understandably you know have a

2099
01:13:30,470 --> 01:13:28,640
strong reaction

2100
01:13:32,390 --> 01:13:30,480
uh almost like an immune response to

2101
01:13:35,430 --> 01:13:32,400
that you know because

2102
01:13:37,110 --> 01:13:35,440
it just doesn't fit into into our model

2103
01:13:39,189 --> 01:13:37,120
um and and something that you know

2104
01:13:41,110 --> 01:13:39,199
really comes to mind

2105
01:13:43,189 --> 01:13:41,120
that fits just like that or falls into

2106
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:43,199
that category is is is the notion of

2107
01:13:47,830 --> 01:13:44,640
synchronicity

2108
01:13:48,630 --> 01:13:47,840
and uh you know we we've all experienced

2109
01:13:50,630 --> 01:13:48,640
that

2110
01:13:53,350 --> 01:13:50,640
um you know i would say

2111
01:13:55,830 --> 01:13:53,360
synchronicity is something that i would

2112
01:13:57,350 --> 01:13:55,840
wager pretty much everybody has had at

2113
01:13:59,430 --> 01:13:57,360
some point in their life and some people

2114
01:14:01,990 --> 01:13:59,440
have them quite quite frequently

2115
01:14:04,149 --> 01:14:02,000
but essentially it's uh

2116
01:14:07,189 --> 01:14:04,159
you know it can be they can range from

2117
01:14:08,950 --> 01:14:07,199
being increa like incredibly mundane to

2118
01:14:10,470 --> 01:14:08,960
extremely profound

2119
01:14:13,669 --> 01:14:10,480
um and

2120
01:14:17,430 --> 01:14:15,750
uh with the profound ones you know we

2121
01:14:18,630 --> 01:14:17,440
obviously want to we attribute a lot of

2122
01:14:20,390 --> 01:14:18,640
meaning to them

2123
01:14:22,310 --> 01:14:20,400
just in some instances

2124
01:14:24,310 --> 01:14:22,320
to where they literally in fact change

2125
01:14:28,149 --> 01:14:24,320
our lives uh or you know that they

2126
01:14:29,910 --> 01:14:28,159
change the trajectory of our lives

2127
01:14:31,830 --> 01:14:29,920
and so i you know i find those

2128
01:14:32,790 --> 01:14:31,840
fascinating in and of themselves because

2129
01:14:33,669 --> 01:14:32,800
it's

2130
01:14:34,390 --> 01:14:33,679
you know

2131
01:14:43,270 --> 01:14:34,400
it

2132
01:14:45,590 --> 01:14:43,280
notions of what should happen of what of

2133
01:14:48,310 --> 01:14:45,600
what is customary or normal quote

2134
01:14:50,390 --> 01:14:48,320
unquote in the world that we understand

2135
01:14:51,830 --> 01:14:50,400
and so here we have a synchronicity and

2136
01:14:53,830 --> 01:14:51,840
that comes along

2137
01:14:55,270 --> 01:14:53,840
and really hits us in the face in a way

2138
01:14:56,709 --> 01:14:55,280
that says you know what something's a

2139
01:14:58,550 --> 01:14:56,719
little off about

2140
01:15:01,590 --> 01:14:58,560
the way you thought things were supposed

2141
01:15:04,390 --> 01:15:01,600
to be here and i think that's uh in a

2142
01:15:05,990 --> 01:15:04,400
sort of reality's way if you will of

2143
01:15:08,149 --> 01:15:06,000
kind of giving us a little bit of a

2144
01:15:09,910 --> 01:15:08,159
nudge and saying you know

2145
01:15:12,390 --> 01:15:09,920
that what you thought was so normal what

2146
01:15:14,550 --> 01:15:12,400
you thought was predictable and

2147
01:15:16,310 --> 01:15:14,560
and standard you know really is not the

2148
01:15:18,550 --> 01:15:16,320
case it's not it's not quite like that

2149
01:15:20,950 --> 01:15:18,560
at all and here's a little bit of a peek

2150
01:15:23,189 --> 01:15:20,960
behind the curtain as to what might be

2151
01:15:24,950 --> 01:15:23,199
going on there but i wonder you know

2152
01:15:27,510 --> 01:15:24,960
sort of and you've put a lot of thought

2153
01:15:29,270 --> 01:15:27,520
into this you know what what

2154
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:29,280
what does the synchronicity kind of

2155
01:15:34,310 --> 01:15:31,600
represent uh to you

2156
01:15:37,030 --> 01:15:34,320
uh in the model that that you understand

2157
01:15:39,189 --> 01:15:37,040
of reality

2158
01:15:42,310 --> 01:15:39,199
well i would say that um synchronicity

2159
01:15:44,149 --> 01:15:42,320
is is right in um the center point uh of

2160
01:15:47,510 --> 01:15:44,159
what we've been talking about already i

2161
01:15:50,830 --> 01:15:47,520
think that uh synchronicity is not

2162
01:15:53,189 --> 01:15:50,840
merely uh you know kind of a fanciful

2163
01:15:55,110 --> 01:15:53,199
imaginary kind of reinterpretation of

2164
01:15:56,870 --> 01:15:55,120
cause and effect and people are just

2165
01:15:58,870 --> 01:15:56,880
imagining it

2166
01:16:01,430 --> 01:15:58,880
i think on the one hand again we try to

2167
01:16:03,270 --> 01:16:01,440
always offer a balanced perspective here

2168
01:16:05,270 --> 01:16:03,280
yes some people see the face of jesus in

2169
01:16:07,910 --> 01:16:05,280
their mashed potatoes and that may not

2170
01:16:10,550 --> 01:16:07,920
be accurate you know or they may see the

2171
01:16:12,390 --> 01:16:10,560
the face of mary in the clouds

2172
01:16:14,790 --> 01:16:12,400
we see cases like that all the time and

2173
01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:14,800
and absolutely if you get enough cloud

2174
01:16:18,390 --> 01:16:16,800
formations enough people eating mashed

2175
01:16:21,750 --> 01:16:18,400
potato you're going to get things like

2176
01:16:23,350 --> 01:16:21,760
the face of jesus or the virgin mary

2177
01:16:24,790 --> 01:16:23,360
so we can account for all that right we

2178
01:16:27,110 --> 01:16:24,800
allow for that just like i said last

2179
01:16:29,030 --> 01:16:27,120
time in terms of experiencer accounts

2180
01:16:30,310 --> 01:16:29,040
you can build in some healthy filters

2181
01:16:31,990 --> 01:16:30,320
saying that some of this is just going

2182
01:16:35,590 --> 01:16:32,000
to be misidentification

2183
01:16:37,590 --> 01:16:35,600
fanciful thinking etc

2184
01:16:39,590 --> 01:16:37,600
but beyond all of that like you said i

2185
01:16:41,350 --> 01:16:39,600
think any of us uh that are honest with

2186
01:16:43,510 --> 01:16:41,360
ourselves have experienced synchronicity

2187
01:16:45,430 --> 01:16:43,520
that seems to not fit in with that

2188
01:16:46,870 --> 01:16:45,440
and because maybe we were aware of those

2189
01:16:49,270 --> 01:16:46,880
people who saw jesus in their mashed

2190
01:16:50,709 --> 01:16:49,280
potatoes we don't talk about it because

2191
01:16:52,550 --> 01:16:50,719
we don't want to be associated with

2192
01:16:53,750 --> 01:16:52,560
those kind of you know silly thinkers or

2193
01:16:55,350 --> 01:16:53,760
whatever

2194
01:16:57,430 --> 01:16:55,360
gullible

2195
01:16:59,030 --> 01:16:57,440
and yet there is

2196
01:17:00,550 --> 01:16:59,040
uh

2197
01:17:02,229 --> 01:17:00,560
remarkable evidence that this is

2198
01:17:04,390 --> 01:17:02,239
happening across the board for a lot for

2199
01:17:07,189 --> 01:17:04,400
people just in generally you know it's

2200
01:17:08,310 --> 01:17:07,199
just uh it's part of our reality

2201
01:17:10,229 --> 01:17:08,320
um

2202
01:17:12,470 --> 01:17:10,239
and it's interesting you know carl jung

2203
01:17:14,229 --> 01:17:12,480
uh wrote a lot about synchronicity and i

2204
01:17:16,950 --> 01:17:14,239
think was probably one of the

2205
01:17:19,189 --> 01:17:16,960
the key thinkers on this and and he came

2206
01:17:21,110 --> 01:17:19,199
to actually believe that

2207
01:17:23,350 --> 01:17:21,120
cause and effect is actually

2208
01:17:24,390 --> 01:17:23,360
a byproduct of synchronicity not the

2209
01:17:26,390 --> 01:17:24,400
other way around so rather than

2210
01:17:27,669 --> 01:17:26,400
synchronicity being the exception to the

2211
01:17:29,110 --> 01:17:27,679
rule and most of the time cause and

2212
01:17:31,189 --> 01:17:29,120
effect rules

2213
01:17:34,310 --> 01:17:31,199
actually even cause and effect falls

2214
01:17:37,590 --> 01:17:34,320
within the totality of synchronicity

2215
01:17:40,229 --> 01:17:37,600
and what it ultimately points to is that

2216
01:17:43,590 --> 01:17:40,239
reality is malleable

2217
01:17:45,830 --> 01:17:43,600
and responds to our mental activity you

2218
01:17:47,750 --> 01:17:45,840
know that um

2219
01:17:48,950 --> 01:17:47,760
when how many times have we all

2220
01:17:50,229 --> 01:17:48,960
experienced this when you're just

2221
01:17:51,750 --> 01:17:50,239
thinking about something or thinking

2222
01:17:54,470 --> 01:17:51,760
about someone

2223
01:17:56,550 --> 01:17:54,480
and they give you a call suddenly or

2224
01:17:58,310 --> 01:17:56,560
you know

2225
01:18:00,790 --> 01:17:58,320
it's just there's so many cases where

2226
01:18:02,229 --> 01:18:00,800
just people have things that seem

2227
01:18:03,910 --> 01:18:02,239
based on

2228
01:18:05,590 --> 01:18:03,920
the chances of that happening at the

2229
01:18:08,149 --> 01:18:05,600
moment while something else was going on

2230
01:18:10,630 --> 01:18:08,159
just seemed you know outlandish and

2231
01:18:12,630 --> 01:18:10,640
uh again you can build in all sorts of

2232
01:18:15,110 --> 01:18:12,640
healthy models saying

2233
01:18:17,510 --> 01:18:15,120
some of that will be coincidence right

2234
01:18:18,870 --> 01:18:17,520
nevertheless it really seems to

2235
01:18:20,790 --> 01:18:18,880
be a real thing

2236
01:18:22,149 --> 01:18:20,800
and again i think it points to the fact

2237
01:18:24,709 --> 01:18:22,159
that

2238
01:18:29,750 --> 01:18:24,719
reality what we can see both reality is

2239
01:18:31,590 --> 01:18:29,760
not this physical thing outside of us

2240
01:18:32,870 --> 01:18:31,600
it's more than just what we're mentally

2241
01:18:35,110 --> 01:18:32,880
conceiving of

2242
01:18:36,070 --> 01:18:35,120
right i think it's part of a larger mind

2243
01:18:37,990 --> 01:18:36,080
space

2244
01:18:39,830 --> 01:18:38,000
of which we are sort of small fractals

2245
01:18:40,709 --> 01:18:39,840
within

2246
01:18:44,390 --> 01:18:40,719
but

2247
01:18:47,270 --> 01:18:44,400
we can impact the totality so

2248
01:18:48,550 --> 01:18:47,280
in small ways and

2249
01:18:49,750 --> 01:18:48,560
what's interesting even when you think

2250
01:18:52,470 --> 01:18:49,760
about

2251
01:18:54,149 --> 01:18:52,480
people who have

2252
01:18:55,990 --> 01:18:54,159
precognitive dreams right where they

2253
01:18:57,030 --> 01:18:56,000
where they see the future what'll often

2254
01:18:59,030 --> 01:18:57,040
happen

2255
01:19:00,550 --> 01:18:59,040
is that they'll see their particular

2256
01:19:02,790 --> 01:19:00,560
future so they won't necessarily see the

2257
01:19:04,709 --> 01:19:02,800
consensus future but they'll see their

2258
01:19:07,430 --> 01:19:04,719
own future and so that suggests again we

2259
01:19:09,669 --> 01:19:07,440
have to some degree while we obviously

2260
01:19:11,990 --> 01:19:09,679
exist we're all immersed in this larger

2261
01:19:13,830 --> 01:19:12,000
shared world space dreamscape

2262
01:19:15,990 --> 01:19:13,840
we also have our own mental experience

2263
01:19:18,070 --> 01:19:16,000
and our own reality to some degree and i

2264
01:19:19,990 --> 01:19:18,080
think where people go wrong is they

2265
01:19:22,149 --> 01:19:20,000
they're again too binary with that they

2266
01:19:23,990 --> 01:19:22,159
either say there's one reality that's

2267
01:19:26,790 --> 01:19:24,000
subjective and physical and it's outside

2268
01:19:29,270 --> 01:19:26,800
of us and we don't affect it at all

2269
01:19:31,189 --> 01:19:29,280
or they swing to the other side and say

2270
01:19:32,390 --> 01:19:31,199
your reality is what you think it is and

2271
01:19:34,149 --> 01:19:32,400
you can do anything you know if you want

2272
01:19:36,630 --> 01:19:34,159
to be superman tomorrow you can jump off

2273
01:19:38,950 --> 01:19:36,640
a building and fly you know that the

2274
01:19:41,189 --> 01:19:38,960
evidence does not support that notion

2275
01:19:44,070 --> 01:19:41,199
right so and i suggest people do not

2276
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:44,080
test that hypothesis um

2277
01:19:49,430 --> 01:19:45,920
but somewhere in between i think is the

2278
01:19:51,189 --> 01:19:49,440
reality that we can uh and the and

2279
01:19:52,790 --> 01:19:51,199
the more we grow in consciousness i

2280
01:19:55,430 --> 01:19:52,800
think the higher our consciousness is

2281
01:19:57,830 --> 01:19:55,440
the more impact we have on the consensus

2282
01:20:00,390 --> 01:19:57,840
reality um

2283
01:20:03,350 --> 01:20:00,400
that's why i think some of these others

2284
01:20:05,590 --> 01:20:03,360
these other um non-human intelligences

2285
01:20:06,709 --> 01:20:05,600
are much further along in this

2286
01:20:08,870 --> 01:20:06,719
and they

2287
01:20:11,990 --> 01:20:08,880
recognize that to manipulate reality is

2288
01:20:14,950 --> 01:20:12,000
to re manipulate these sort of mental

2289
01:20:16,870 --> 01:20:14,960
cognitive overlays that inform our

2290
01:20:18,470 --> 01:20:16,880
experience and our reality

2291
01:20:19,910 --> 01:20:18,480
that when that's the case suddenly you

2292
01:20:22,390 --> 01:20:19,920
can imagine them doing all sorts of

2293
01:20:23,669 --> 01:20:22,400
things that it's not just about

2294
01:20:25,990 --> 01:20:23,679
um

2295
01:20:27,430 --> 01:20:26,000
you know dissolving a wall

2296
01:20:29,590 --> 01:20:27,440
and passing someone through it and

2297
01:20:31,110 --> 01:20:29,600
reassembling their atoms up in the ship

2298
01:20:32,790 --> 01:20:31,120
like we would picture on star trek

2299
01:20:33,910 --> 01:20:32,800
because that's still a physicalist model

2300
01:20:35,189 --> 01:20:33,920
right like

2301
01:20:36,870 --> 01:20:35,199
people there are thinking how would you

2302
01:20:38,790 --> 01:20:36,880
accomplish that okay you take the atoms

2303
01:20:40,070 --> 01:20:38,800
you you separate them so they're far

2304
01:20:41,510 --> 01:20:40,080
enough apart you can pass them through a

2305
01:20:43,830 --> 01:20:41,520
wall because the wall too is just a

2306
01:20:44,870 --> 01:20:43,840
bunch of atoms that you could separate

2307
01:20:45,669 --> 01:20:44,880
and then you put them back together

2308
01:20:49,350 --> 01:20:45,679
again

2309
01:20:51,030 --> 01:20:49,360
just like in a dream

2310
01:20:53,830 --> 01:20:51,040
if you want to pass through a wall in a

2311
01:20:56,870 --> 01:20:53,840
dream you don't have to do that do you

2312
01:20:58,629 --> 01:20:56,880
because it's ultimately mind stuff

2313
01:21:01,110 --> 01:20:58,639
that's what i think is going on i think

2314
01:21:03,669 --> 01:21:01,120
some of them know that some of them

2315
01:21:05,430 --> 01:21:03,679
just that's how they manipulate and move

2316
01:21:06,870 --> 01:21:05,440
through reality and that's why we're

2317
01:21:08,870 --> 01:21:06,880
caught off guard and don't understand it

2318
01:21:11,430 --> 01:21:08,880
and seem perplexed by it

2319
01:21:13,590 --> 01:21:11,440
um but yeah synchronicity is is

2320
01:21:15,110 --> 01:21:13,600
absolutely real synchronicity shows that

2321
01:21:17,590 --> 01:21:15,120
we are not just

2322
01:21:19,830 --> 01:21:17,600
passive observers of reality but actual

2323
01:21:22,310 --> 01:21:19,840
actors that can impact it

2324
01:21:24,870 --> 01:21:22,320
and and it also often it's a social

2325
01:21:27,430 --> 01:21:24,880
interaction uh we're different conscious

2326
01:21:30,550 --> 01:21:27,440
agents to use uh you know i think donald

2327
01:21:32,709 --> 01:21:30,560
hoffman's term uh can impact because he

2328
01:21:35,030 --> 01:21:32,719
also posits that consciousness is

2329
01:21:37,110 --> 01:21:35,040
fundamental and physical reality is we

2330
01:21:39,030 --> 01:21:37,120
perceive it is uh you know a byproduct

2331
01:21:40,390 --> 01:21:39,040
of that

2332
01:21:42,229 --> 01:21:40,400
so for him

2333
01:21:43,430 --> 01:21:42,239
really what this is about the growth is

2334
01:21:45,590 --> 01:21:43,440
about

2335
01:21:48,950 --> 01:21:45,600
conscious agents interacting with each

2336
01:21:51,270 --> 01:21:48,960
other um the rest is all malleable

2337
01:21:53,430 --> 01:21:51,280
and synchronicity is

2338
01:21:56,310 --> 01:21:53,440
evidence that that's what's really going

2339
01:21:58,629 --> 01:21:56,320
on in reality

2340
01:22:00,950 --> 01:21:58,639
yeah and i love that it's a

2341
01:22:03,270 --> 01:22:00,960
a model that that is interconnected it

2342
01:22:05,750 --> 01:22:03,280
has this strong connective tissue

2343
01:22:08,550 --> 01:22:05,760
component to it that materialism does

2344
01:22:09,350 --> 01:22:08,560
not seem to have under materialism the

2345
01:22:12,070 --> 01:22:09,360
world

2346
01:22:13,910 --> 01:22:12,080
that we are so familiar with

2347
01:22:18,629 --> 01:22:13,920
we are all

2348
01:22:21,189 --> 01:22:18,639
uh you know kind of it's very atomistic

2349
01:22:24,709 --> 01:22:21,199
in a way uh and

2350
01:22:27,430 --> 01:22:24,719
in in in you know the world of idealism

2351
01:22:31,350 --> 01:22:27,440
where where these concepts are

2352
01:22:33,189 --> 01:22:31,360
uh you know sort of the way things work

2353
01:22:34,550 --> 01:22:33,199
your conscious experience my conscious

2354
01:22:36,950 --> 01:22:34,560
experience you know there is this

2355
01:22:39,830 --> 01:22:36,960
interconnectivity to it there really is

2356
01:22:42,709 --> 01:22:39,840
this uh sense in which we are closer

2357
01:22:45,110 --> 01:22:42,719
than we than we think uh to to one

2358
01:22:46,390 --> 01:22:45,120
another and i think that's a very

2359
01:22:49,750 --> 01:22:46,400
powerful

2360
01:22:52,550 --> 01:22:49,760
uh way of of thinking about uh both both

2361
01:22:55,590 --> 01:22:52,560
individuality but also in a sort of

2362
01:22:58,709 --> 01:22:55,600
experience broadly uh you know not only

2363
01:23:00,229 --> 01:22:58,719
human experience but experience of all

2364
01:23:02,550 --> 01:23:00,239
living things you know that there is

2365
01:23:05,110 --> 01:23:02,560
this really rich you know sort of

2366
01:23:07,430 --> 01:23:05,120
interconnected web of of conscious

2367
01:23:10,229 --> 01:23:07,440
experience and and we are you know kind

2368
01:23:12,870 --> 01:23:10,239
of nodes along you know in in that web

2369
01:23:15,750 --> 01:23:12,880
uh you know our our own activity impacts

2370
01:23:18,070 --> 01:23:15,760
relates uh with with the activity of

2371
01:23:19,669 --> 01:23:18,080
others that are that are there as well

2372
01:23:21,030 --> 01:23:19,679
um so for me it's a it's something

2373
01:23:22,629 --> 01:23:21,040
that's very powerful and i know we're

2374
01:23:25,590 --> 01:23:22,639
gonna we're gonna come back to this

2375
01:23:26,950 --> 01:23:25,600
topic uh a lot more in the future uh as

2376
01:23:29,189 --> 01:23:26,960
we continue to kind of explore these

2377
01:23:31,510 --> 01:23:29,199
concepts but you know as we kind of uh

2378
01:23:32,470 --> 01:23:31,520
you know turn toward the end of the show

2379
01:23:34,070 --> 01:23:32,480
um

2380
01:23:34,950 --> 01:23:34,080
and we've we've actually kind of been

2381
01:23:36,790 --> 01:23:34,960
you know

2382
01:23:38,709 --> 01:23:36,800
dipping in and out of this already uh to

2383
01:23:40,790 --> 01:23:38,719
some degree but you know what would you

2384
01:23:41,590 --> 01:23:40,800
say are some of the ways in which these

2385
01:23:44,310 --> 01:23:41,600
uh

2386
01:23:46,390 --> 01:23:44,320
the these topics that we've covered you

2387
01:23:48,709 --> 01:23:46,400
know that what would you say that is

2388
01:23:50,390 --> 01:23:48,719
sort of the common uh commonality

2389
01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:50,400
amongst them how are they related to

2390
01:23:55,270 --> 01:23:52,639
each other

2391
01:23:57,189 --> 01:23:55,280
right like as you say we've kind of

2392
01:24:00,310 --> 01:23:57,199
touched on this a few times now i think

2393
01:24:03,510 --> 01:24:00,320
it it they're all common data points uh

2394
01:24:06,070 --> 01:24:03,520
within a an idealist metaphysical

2395
01:24:07,669 --> 01:24:06,080
conception of reality that within that

2396
01:24:09,590 --> 01:24:07,679
overarching conception you can make

2397
01:24:11,030 --> 01:24:09,600
sense of all of this and i think we

2398
01:24:12,070 --> 01:24:11,040
should we should be really clear and say

2399
01:24:13,910 --> 01:24:12,080
that

2400
01:24:17,030 --> 01:24:13,920
according to like a hardline

2401
01:24:19,270 --> 01:24:17,040
reductionistic materialistic model

2402
01:24:21,510 --> 01:24:19,280
not only can you not make sense of the

2403
01:24:23,110 --> 01:24:21,520
ufo phenomenon and stuff that happens so

2404
01:24:24,790 --> 01:24:23,120
if you if that's the hill you want to

2405
01:24:26,149 --> 01:24:24,800
die on that you really are convinced

2406
01:24:28,310 --> 01:24:26,159
that's the model of reality that's

2407
01:24:30,709 --> 01:24:28,320
correct then you almost have no choice

2408
01:24:32,950 --> 01:24:30,719
but to reject all of the data coming out

2409
01:24:34,629 --> 01:24:32,960
of the the phenomenon because

2410
01:24:36,229 --> 01:24:34,639
it just doesn't fit

2411
01:24:38,470 --> 01:24:36,239
but then even like you pointed out

2412
01:24:40,470 --> 01:24:38,480
earlier uh revelations coming out of

2413
01:24:42,790 --> 01:24:40,480
quantum experiments don't fit either you

2414
01:24:44,470 --> 01:24:42,800
know or something i mean to touch on

2415
01:24:45,990 --> 01:24:44,480
what we're talking about here

2416
01:24:48,390 --> 01:24:46,000
it has been proven

2417
01:24:51,430 --> 01:24:48,400
okay in quantum experiments

2418
01:24:52,550 --> 01:24:51,440
that two people could observe something

2419
01:24:54,470 --> 01:24:52,560
and observe

2420
01:24:56,830 --> 01:24:54,480
and and see two different things and

2421
01:24:58,470 --> 01:24:56,840
both be real both be right

2422
01:24:59,990 --> 01:24:58,480
okay

2423
01:25:01,750 --> 01:25:00,000
a lot of people don't understand the

2424
01:25:03,910 --> 01:25:01,760
implication of that like the shocking

2425
01:25:06,229 --> 01:25:03,920
implication you know and i think was

2426
01:25:08,149 --> 01:25:06,239
niels bohr a famous quantum physicist

2427
01:25:10,629 --> 01:25:08,159
from around the turn of the century

2428
01:25:12,310 --> 01:25:10,639
who said uh you know if quantum physics

2429
01:25:13,990 --> 01:25:12,320
hasn't like profoundly shocked you you

2430
01:25:15,270 --> 01:25:14,000
haven't understood it yet

2431
01:25:16,629 --> 01:25:15,280
like that was his point and a lot of

2432
01:25:18,390 --> 01:25:16,639
those early

2433
01:25:20,390 --> 01:25:18,400
quantum physicists

2434
01:25:22,390 --> 01:25:20,400
became mystics because that's what it

2435
01:25:25,430 --> 01:25:22,400
points to is this kind of

2436
01:25:27,270 --> 01:25:25,440
dreamscape of reality this kind of um

2437
01:25:29,189 --> 01:25:27,280
consciousness at the root and everything

2438
01:25:31,590 --> 01:25:29,199
else energy matter these things that we

2439
01:25:32,870 --> 01:25:31,600
think of as being solid and trustworthy

2440
01:25:35,990 --> 01:25:32,880
are actually

2441
01:25:38,229 --> 01:25:36,000
kind of these wispy uh temporary

2442
01:25:40,390 --> 01:25:38,239
manifestations it's consciousness that

2443
01:25:41,590 --> 01:25:40,400
is permanent that is primary

2444
01:25:43,430 --> 01:25:41,600
um

2445
01:25:45,750 --> 01:25:43,440
and you know

2446
01:25:47,830 --> 01:25:45,760
not long ago i i pointed out that i

2447
01:25:49,750 --> 01:25:47,840
don't think it's coincidental and i

2448
01:25:52,229 --> 01:25:49,760
think it's a clue

2449
01:25:54,629 --> 01:25:52,239
that we do have cases where people like

2450
01:25:57,030 --> 01:25:54,639
whitley strieber have experienced and

2451
01:25:58,950 --> 01:25:57,040
guests at his cabin have experienced

2452
01:26:00,390 --> 01:25:58,960
seeing deceased relatives along with

2453
01:26:02,229 --> 01:26:00,400
grey aliens so

2454
01:26:03,590 --> 01:26:02,239
in one case that whitley streeter talks

2455
01:26:05,110 --> 01:26:03,600
about he he and his wife were

2456
01:26:06,790 --> 01:26:05,120
experiencing gray aliens on the second

2457
01:26:08,790 --> 01:26:06,800
floor and on the first floor another

2458
01:26:10,470 --> 01:26:08,800
guest was seeing her brother who had

2459
01:26:11,990 --> 01:26:10,480
been missing that she didn't know he was

2460
01:26:13,430 --> 01:26:12,000
deceived but it turned out it turns out

2461
01:26:14,390 --> 01:26:13,440
he was but he was showing up to say hey

2462
01:26:15,990 --> 01:26:14,400
i'm okay

2463
01:26:16,870 --> 01:26:16,000
you know this was happening in the same

2464
01:26:18,790 --> 01:26:16,880
case

2465
01:26:20,070 --> 01:26:18,800
now again some people

2466
01:26:22,310 --> 01:26:20,080
want to look at this in kind of a

2467
01:26:23,830 --> 01:26:22,320
reductionistic way we'll say oh well

2468
01:26:25,350 --> 01:26:23,840
those are the greys just disguising

2469
01:26:27,750 --> 01:26:25,360
themselves as her brother right just to

2470
01:26:29,750 --> 01:26:27,760
fool her because we know those are those

2471
01:26:31,510 --> 01:26:29,760
are nasty actors and i'm like well

2472
01:26:32,390 --> 01:26:31,520
that's that's one interpretation and i

2473
01:26:35,030 --> 01:26:32,400
can't

2474
01:26:37,030 --> 01:26:35,040
conclusively say you're wrong about that

2475
01:26:39,750 --> 01:26:37,040
but what i think it points to what i

2476
01:26:41,189 --> 01:26:39,760
think is more persuasive is that

2477
01:26:44,709 --> 01:26:41,199
um

2478
01:26:47,270 --> 01:26:44,719
these others understand the overlaying

2479
01:26:49,830 --> 01:26:47,280
modalities of reality and what we think

2480
01:26:51,430 --> 01:26:49,840
of as death is actually mostly an

2481
01:26:53,030 --> 01:26:51,440
illusion and

2482
01:26:55,669 --> 01:26:53,040
will turn out to be a house of cards in

2483
01:26:59,750 --> 01:26:55,679
many ways and for them it's seamless and

2484
01:27:01,750 --> 01:26:59,760
easy to bring along with them uh these

2485
01:27:03,750 --> 01:27:01,760
others who are our deceased relatives

2486
01:27:06,390 --> 01:27:03,760
who are just in a different modality of

2487
01:27:08,870 --> 01:27:06,400
existence than we are

2488
01:27:10,229 --> 01:27:08,880
but it's not complex and because they

2489
01:27:12,470 --> 01:27:10,239
are so

2490
01:27:15,350 --> 01:27:12,480
more astute than us in moving across

2491
01:27:17,270 --> 01:27:15,360
those different domains um which is all

2492
01:27:18,950 --> 01:27:17,280
part of the the totality of this like i

2493
01:27:20,870 --> 01:27:18,960
say these overlapping

2494
01:27:22,629 --> 01:27:20,880
waves of conscious experience is what

2495
01:27:23,750 --> 01:27:22,639
reality ultimately is

2496
01:27:25,350 --> 01:27:23,760
they just are further along in

2497
01:27:27,910 --> 01:27:25,360
understanding how to do that and they

2498
01:27:29,430 --> 01:27:27,920
can therefore traverse these

2499
01:27:31,669 --> 01:27:29,440
you know these divisions that we think

2500
01:27:33,750 --> 01:27:31,679
of as hard and solid and impenetrable

2501
01:27:37,590 --> 01:27:33,760
like death and life and for them it's

2502
01:27:41,590 --> 01:27:39,350
and i think

2503
01:27:44,229 --> 01:27:41,600
you know there's a lot of

2504
01:27:45,430 --> 01:27:44,239
work to be done right

2505
01:27:47,510 --> 01:27:45,440
as we

2506
01:27:51,669 --> 01:27:47,520
explore the implications of this way of

2507
01:27:54,229 --> 01:27:51,679
thinking uh as we kind of map it on to

2508
01:27:57,910 --> 01:27:54,239
a phenomenal experience

2509
01:28:00,550 --> 01:27:57,920
and i and i and i would say too that um

2510
01:28:02,390 --> 01:28:00,560
we're not advocating uh

2511
01:28:04,550 --> 01:28:02,400
at least as far as i understand you know

2512
01:28:07,990 --> 01:28:04,560
we're not advocating a wholesale

2513
01:28:11,110 --> 01:28:08,000
adoption of uh you know kind of

2514
01:28:14,229 --> 01:28:11,120
uh sort of ancient conceptions of of the

2515
01:28:16,709 --> 01:28:14,239
this idea what we are advocating is as

2516
01:28:19,910 --> 01:28:16,719
as you said earlier a transcending and

2517
01:28:22,390 --> 01:28:19,920
including uh of where we have come from

2518
01:28:25,830 --> 01:28:22,400
and and advancing you know advancing our

2519
01:28:27,910 --> 01:28:25,840
knowledge in a way that uh incorporates

2520
01:28:28,870 --> 01:28:27,920
the learnings and understandings of the

2521
01:28:31,030 --> 01:28:28,880
past

2522
01:28:33,590 --> 01:28:31,040
the value of our science we're not

2523
01:28:35,510 --> 01:28:33,600
saying you know let's throw science as

2524
01:28:37,270 --> 01:28:35,520
we know it out the window where we're

2525
01:28:40,390 --> 01:28:37,280
saying let well

2526
01:28:43,590 --> 01:28:40,400
let's just make it uh you know sort of

2527
01:28:47,830 --> 01:28:45,590
let's give it an appropriate place

2528
01:28:50,149 --> 01:28:47,840
within the framework of this new concept

2529
01:28:52,070 --> 01:28:50,159
and there is going to be it has to be

2530
01:28:53,030 --> 01:28:52,080
you know new work new territory to

2531
01:28:56,070 --> 01:28:53,040
explore

2532
01:28:58,709 --> 01:28:56,080
as as this becomes more and more a way

2533
01:29:02,149 --> 01:28:58,719
of of rethinking and viewing the world

2534
01:29:03,830 --> 01:29:02,159
as it is you know so there's a lot of um

2535
01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:03,840
to me this is where it becomes quite

2536
01:29:09,669 --> 01:29:07,840
exciting because there is a lot of uh

2537
01:29:11,669 --> 01:29:09,679
not only like explanatory power with

2538
01:29:13,510 --> 01:29:11,679
this model but there is a lot of

2539
01:29:17,110 --> 01:29:13,520
knowledge that is still left to be

2540
01:29:19,110 --> 01:29:17,120
gained in how it really works

2541
01:29:20,950 --> 01:29:19,120
uh you know it's it's not just we're

2542
01:29:23,110 --> 01:29:20,960
saying okay just meditate and that's all

2543
01:29:24,470 --> 01:29:23,120
you need to do you know because it's all

2544
01:29:25,669 --> 01:29:24,480
mined you know it's not really what

2545
01:29:28,229 --> 01:29:25,679
we're getting at

2546
01:29:29,189 --> 01:29:28,239
um and you know i think as as time goes

2547
01:29:33,270 --> 01:29:29,199
on

2548
01:29:35,110 --> 01:29:33,280
will be offering and and as others

2549
01:29:37,910 --> 01:29:35,120
respond to you know kind of this

2550
01:29:39,750 --> 01:29:37,920
conversation as well we're going to see

2551
01:29:41,270 --> 01:29:39,760
you know some real fruit

2552
01:29:43,590 --> 01:29:41,280
come forward

2553
01:29:46,070 --> 01:29:43,600
that helps us i think better

2554
01:29:48,310 --> 01:29:46,080
approach uh not only the individuals

2555
01:29:50,870 --> 01:29:48,320
experi experiences that individuals have

2556
01:29:53,189 --> 01:29:50,880
but what we are hearing about and seeing

2557
01:29:55,030 --> 01:29:53,199
uh with uh the revelations that the

2558
01:29:57,030 --> 01:29:55,040
government is sharing with us about what

2559
01:29:58,390 --> 01:29:57,040
they are seeing you know in their own

2560
01:29:59,830 --> 01:29:58,400
airspace and

2561
01:30:01,510 --> 01:29:59,840
uh and you know wherever they're

2562
01:30:02,950 --> 01:30:01,520
operating

2563
01:30:05,430 --> 01:30:02,960
yeah absolutely and the only thing i

2564
01:30:07,110 --> 01:30:05,440
would add as we close here is that

2565
01:30:08,629 --> 01:30:07,120
like you touched on earlier i think this

2566
01:30:10,390 --> 01:30:08,639
is um

2567
01:30:13,030 --> 01:30:10,400
this provides meaning

2568
01:30:16,310 --> 01:30:13,040
for uh not just for the ufo phenomenon

2569
01:30:17,990 --> 01:30:16,320
and high strangeness but for the very

2570
01:30:21,270 --> 01:30:18,000
existence of our lives you know that

2571
01:30:23,910 --> 01:30:21,280
we're not some freak accident of

2572
01:30:26,790 --> 01:30:23,920
you know the again the physicalist model

2573
01:30:28,870 --> 01:30:26,800
of the multiverse partly was posited

2574
01:30:31,189 --> 01:30:28,880
uh to

2575
01:30:35,189 --> 01:30:31,199
when we look at how how this universe

2576
01:30:37,270 --> 01:30:35,199
seems so finely tuned for us and for the

2577
01:30:38,950 --> 01:30:37,280
production of planets and stable systems

2578
01:30:40,790 --> 01:30:38,960
generally and and

2579
01:30:43,189 --> 01:30:40,800
and the kind of uh you know base

2580
01:30:44,709 --> 01:30:43,199
elements that allow for life to develop

2581
01:30:47,030 --> 01:30:44,719
and things like that

2582
01:30:49,590 --> 01:30:47,040
in order to sort of maintain the the

2583
01:30:51,830 --> 01:30:49,600
notion that this is all just a fluke and

2584
01:30:53,189 --> 01:30:51,840
random they posit

2585
01:30:55,270 --> 01:30:53,199
you know

2586
01:30:57,189 --> 01:30:55,280
innumerable numbers of

2587
01:30:59,510 --> 01:30:57,199
universes that are being created all the

2588
01:31:01,270 --> 01:30:59,520
time and of course one of them or a few

2589
01:31:02,790 --> 01:31:01,280
of them are going to turn out to be just

2590
01:31:04,470 --> 01:31:02,800
by fluke

2591
01:31:05,990 --> 01:31:04,480
designed this way

2592
01:31:07,830 --> 01:31:06,000
i think what

2593
01:31:09,590 --> 01:31:07,840
again that's sort of uh adding

2594
01:31:11,590 --> 01:31:09,600
complexity

2595
01:31:13,830 --> 01:31:11,600
to try and explain what we're already

2596
01:31:16,310 --> 01:31:13,840
seeing and and we need to remind people

2597
01:31:19,030 --> 01:31:16,320
that what we know for sure is that we're

2598
01:31:20,550 --> 01:31:19,040
conscious and we have experience

2599
01:31:22,629 --> 01:31:20,560
projecting something like a physical

2600
01:31:25,270 --> 01:31:22,639
reality outside of that

2601
01:31:27,669 --> 01:31:25,280
is adding something and in terms of the

2602
01:31:29,510 --> 01:31:27,679
the law of parsimony you you generally

2603
01:31:31,110 --> 01:31:29,520
want to go with the the simplest

2604
01:31:33,350 --> 01:31:31,120
explanation right

2605
01:31:35,350 --> 01:31:33,360
occam's razor here so the simplest

2606
01:31:38,470 --> 01:31:35,360
explanation is that consciousness exists

2607
01:31:40,790 --> 01:31:38,480
its primary we have experience of which

2608
01:31:43,830 --> 01:31:40,800
it manifests looking like physical

2609
01:31:45,830 --> 01:31:43,840
reality but we are primary we are part

2610
01:31:49,350 --> 01:31:45,840
of a consciousness

2611
01:31:51,110 --> 01:31:49,360
uh substrate uh that that explains how

2612
01:31:52,629 --> 01:31:51,120
we're all connected that explains how

2613
01:31:54,390 --> 01:31:52,639
people have

2614
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:54,400
experiences with these aliens where they

2615
01:31:59,270 --> 01:31:56,880
remember being an alien a past life or

2616
01:32:01,350 --> 01:31:59,280
knowing that alien being

2617
01:32:02,790 --> 01:32:01,360
in between lives all of this begins to

2618
01:32:04,149 --> 01:32:02,800
make sense all the experience for

2619
01:32:06,709 --> 01:32:04,159
testimony

2620
01:32:09,430 --> 01:32:06,719
as well as all the you know really

2621
01:32:11,390 --> 01:32:09,440
impressive robust data coming out of you

2622
01:32:14,070 --> 01:32:11,400
know near-death experiences

2623
01:32:15,910 --> 01:32:14,080
parapsychology quantum mechanics what

2624
01:32:18,470 --> 01:32:15,920
we're saying is that all of it points in

2625
01:32:21,270 --> 01:32:18,480
this direction that and and what it does

2626
01:32:24,149 --> 01:32:21,280
is it provides a nobility and a purpose

2627
01:32:26,790 --> 01:32:24,159
to our existence that we really are here

2628
01:32:29,110 --> 01:32:26,800
for a reason and

2629
01:32:31,350 --> 01:32:29,120
and i think that is probably the most

2630
01:32:33,110 --> 01:32:31,360
exciting aspect of this of all and i'm

2631
01:32:34,870 --> 01:32:33,120
i'm encouraged to

2632
01:32:36,870 --> 01:32:34,880
be part of the movement to help people

2633
01:32:38,870 --> 01:32:36,880
realize that so it um

2634
01:32:43,510 --> 01:32:38,880
it enables them to feel excited about

2635
01:32:45,990 --> 01:32:44,709
yes

2636
01:32:48,229 --> 01:32:46,000
and

2637
01:32:51,110 --> 01:32:48,239
on that note i could have said it better

2638
01:32:53,270 --> 01:32:51,120
so we will wrap up

2639
01:32:54,950 --> 01:32:53,280
incredibly happy to have those of you

2640
01:32:57,669 --> 01:32:54,960
listening with us and

2641
01:32:59,669 --> 01:32:57,679
uh and and really honored for those that

2642
01:33:01,350 --> 01:32:59,679
find the show meaningful and and you

2643
01:33:02,790 --> 01:33:01,360
know feel so

2644
01:33:03,910 --> 01:33:02,800
much that way that they want to share it

2645
01:33:05,510 --> 01:33:03,920
with uh

2646
01:33:07,669 --> 01:33:05,520
friends and colleagues

2647
01:33:10,229 --> 01:33:07,679
that's a high honor if you decide to

2648
01:33:11,910 --> 01:33:10,239
share this show with others

2649
01:33:14,709 --> 01:33:11,920
and we hope that you'll continue to join

2650
01:33:16,950 --> 01:33:14,719
us along the way in the journey and uh

2651
01:33:18,950 --> 01:33:16,960
and participate in future conversation

2652
01:33:20,390 --> 01:33:18,960
uh because the conversation must

2653
01:33:22,709 --> 01:33:20,400
continue

2654
01:33:25,350 --> 01:33:22,719
and with that said may the quality of

2655
01:33:27,830 --> 01:33:25,360
our questions shaped by a desire for

2656
01:33:29,350 --> 01:33:27,840
understanding enhance our journey of

2657
01:33:31,270 --> 01:33:29,360
discovery

2658
01:33:33,830 --> 01:33:31,280
and may our travels broaden the sphere

2659
01:33:37,910 --> 01:33:33,840
of our consciousness reminding us that

2660
01:33:40,950 --> 01:33:37,920
new discoveries beget new horizons

2661
01:33:42,709 --> 01:33:40,960
as always adventure awaits

2662
01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:42,719
we'll see you next time on liminal

2663
01:33:50,560 --> 01:33:48,970
[Music]

2664
01:33:56,860 --> 01:33:50,570
[Laughter]